Scaling Smart: Lessons from Building a Multi-Location Hybrid PT Clinic

Featuring: Chris Roble, Founder of Physio Room

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Running a physical therapy practice is one thing—scaling it across multiple locations while maintaining culture, quality, and profitability is another. In this episode of the PT Biz Podcast, Doc Danny sits down with longtime friend and PT Biz coach, Chris Roble, who has done exactly that.

Chris is the founder of Physio Room, a Colorado-based clinic with four locations running a hybrid model (cash + limited insurance). They unpack how Chris grew from one clinic to four, built a team-first culture, and made smart moves that supported long-term success.

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Key Takeaways

1. Don’t Underestimate the Power of a Strong Front Desk

Chris emphasizes that the front desk isn’t just admin—it’s sales and client experience in one. Training, trust, and incentives matter just as much here as they do for your clinicians.

2. Culture Comes First

Whether it's setting expectations, building career ladders, or giving team members ownership, Chris leads with clarity and culture. He’s created an environment where team members want to grow—and stick around.

3. Scaling Requires Scary Goals

If you’re afraid to set big targets, you’ll stay small. Chris shares how shifting his mindset from “just survive” to “scale smart” opened the door for sustainable growth and better compensation models.

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Memorable Quotes

“Culture eats strategy for breakfast. Mindset drives everything.”
“The front desk is the most important position in the clinic. They’re client experience and sales in one.”
“You can’t think small and expect to scale. You have to set scary goals.”
“If you want to pay your team more, you either raise your rates or raise your volume. Those are the levers.”

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What You’ll Learn

• How Chris structured his hybrid model for success

• The exact way he compensates and incentivizes his team

• Why he focused so heavily on front desk training

• How he avoids micromanaging but still drives accountability

• What mistakes PT owners make when they try to scale too fast

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Tools & Resources

• PT Biz Website  – Business coaching and systems for cash-based clinicians

• Join the 5-Day Challenge  – Learn how to go full-time with your practice

• Download the PT Biz Manual  – Stories & lessons from 1,000+ successful cash clinicians

• Watch on YouTube  – Weekly videos on sales, mindset, marketing, and more

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About Physio Room

Physio Room  is a hybrid clinic with four locations in Colorado, blending cash-based PT with minimal insurance for flexibility and profitability. Under Chris Roble’s leadership, it has grown into a culture-driven organization where clinicians thrive and clients get results.

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Final Thought

If you're running a cash-based practice and want to grow it into something bigger—without burning out or losing your values—this episode is for you. Chris proves that scaling smart is possible when you focus on systems, mindset, and people.

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Resources to Help You Grow

Want to get better at this faster? Start here:

• Join the 5-Day Challenge – Learn how to go full-time with a clear, actionable plan

• Get the PT Biz Book – Lessons from 240+ practice owners who scaled up

• Watch our YouTube Channel – Weekly strategies for mindset, marketing, and more

• Visit PT Biz – Coaching and support to build your dream practice

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Ready to elevate your practice? Book a call at the link below with one of our expert consultants today and start your journey to delivering unparalleled physical therapy.

Podcast Transcript

Danny: Hey, what's going on? Danny Matta here with PT Biz and the PT Entrepreneur podcast. And, um, man, today we get to talk to Chris, Chris Robl, longtime friend of mine, uh, coach within, uh, the, the [00:00:10] PT Biz, uh, community. Somebody that I've seen really go from like a very, you know, a small business to what would be.

Considered by most cases, like a very [00:00:20] large practice, uh, at, at, at this point in the, uh, the Denver and uh, Colorado Springs area. Uh, it's been fun to be able to watch you, you grow and, and, uh, evolve as [00:00:30] a business owner. But we wanna chat about business, what things are looking like in your clinic, in the area that you're in today.

And then from the coaching side, you work with a number of clinics that are, uh, [00:00:40] you know, uh, clients of ours and really seeing what's happening, you know, with them in an ongoing basis. It's always really interesting to see trends. As they, they are kind of grouped together and you can kind of skate where the puck [00:00:50] is going.

We wanna share some of that with people today as well. So, um, Chris, first of all, man, thanks so much for your time. I know it's a little bit earlier there. What is it? A two hour difference, right?

Chris: It's two hours. It's seven 30. Seven 30.

Danny: So [00:01:00] kids just are, are off today, right? And, uh, or that's tomorrow. School starts.

Chris: Yeah.

Yeah, tomorrow school is, uh, underway. Summer is over.

Danny: Yeah. You know, we started back the [00:01:10] July 29th, which is super early, right. I think, uh, for most people it's mid August, but I can tell you when my kids get back into school, I become far more [00:01:20] effective, like. I am managing my time better. It's more quiet here.

It's great. Like, no, no offense to my kids. I love hanging out with 'em, but dude, when it, it's time for 'em to get back into school, like, I know, I'm, I'm gonna be clicking on all [00:01:30] cylinders again.

Chris: Yeah. I feel that for sure. I'm ready.

Danny: Yeah. Well, dude, tell me this, like, so, you know, whatever, everybody that listens to this pretty much is a physical therapist and, [00:01:40] um.

Getting into the profession. For most of us, we all have our own path usually goes through our own injuries or we get exposed to it somehow. But becoming a business owner, usually that happens number two ways. So you're like, [00:01:50] one, you're inherently always interested in it and you want to do that from the get go or two, you just get so frustrated that you have to try to do your own thing.

So I would love to know like how, how did you end up taking the, the [00:02:00] path where you deviated to then start your own clinic?

Chris: Yeah, I think I was the, the latter. Danny, I grew up as an entrepreneur. I was selling t-shirts in [00:02:10] college and high school, and there was just always some sort of business venture, uh, that I found myself in.

Uh, so when I graduated PT school in 2011, I moved out here. [00:02:20] And started working for this practice that I found on Craigslist. And, uh, about six months later, um, they offered me partnership in the business. Um, and so, [00:02:30] uh, six months in, you know, your new PT director and now owner of a practice, and I, I did that for about six years and I sold that practice after six years.[00:02:40]

Uh, and it, it just became one of those mills where we were turning 'em and, and it was a turn 'em and burn 'em type of clinic. And I didn't want to do that anymore. And I just. I [00:02:50] wanted something different. So sold that, waited a, a two year non-compete, and that's when we started Physio room in 2018. So I, so I've owned a practice for [00:03:00] 14 years now.

Danny: Yeah. Tell me about, so, so, okay, within, first of all, I don't think anybody's finding employment on Craigslist too much anymore. Maybe they are. [00:03:10] Uh, you know, but like, so you, you find a place to work on Craigslist and within six months they offer you an opportunity to partner in clinics. Now this was, this was in the clinic [00:03:20] that you were working in, or this was like within a group of clinics?

Like what did that look like?

Chris: Yeah, so Denver is saturated and, uh, with [00:03:30] PTs that is, and so we don't, you don't have to pay the PTs all that much. So I, I graduated in 2011 and I was making I think $62,000 [00:03:40] as a. Physical therapist. Yeah. And I realized once my student loans kicked in that I wasn't making enough money.

Um, and so that was about the time I was looking [00:03:50] for other jobs. Um, and so I was gonna go down to Roswell, New Mexico and take this, uh, director position down there. They were gonna gimme a huge sign on bonus. And I went back to [00:04:00] my current company. I said, Hey, thanks for the opportunity. I really appreciate it.

I love working here. But, um, they counter offered that, and they offered me partnership in the company at that, [00:04:10] at that moment.

Danny: Wow. So how did that go with you helping them kind of grow clinics over the next few years? So were, were you a partner in each additional clinic [00:04:20] that was started up? Was that basically like a minority, you know, share and then there was obviously like a bigger company that holded every, it was like a hold coat for everything.

Like what did, what did the nuts and bolts [00:04:30] look like and was it actually a pretty decent deal for you or was it actually a bad deal at the time?

Chris: It was a good deal, and I, I say that now, uh, because [00:04:40] I, I look back and I learned so much. The two guys that I worked for were brilliant in, in many, many ways, and I also learned what [00:04:50] not to do in, in many, many ways.

Um, so it was a great deal. I made good money. I was able to sell my shares and, and make a little bit of money on that exit. Um, [00:05:00] and I think that was a learning moment for me because I was only there for six months. I didn't really know these people. And you never really want to get married to someone that you only know for a few [00:05:10] months.

Um, 'cause ultimately it, it ended up in a business divorce and right. Along that way, I was supposed to have first right of refusal on any [00:05:20] additional clinics. And we had many additional clinics. We grew from two to, I think 14 clinics in the time that I was there. Wow. And [00:05:30] I was cut out of the, those additional clinics.

So, uh, that is ultimately what led to my departure.

Danny: Yeah. Well, I mean, this is my experience. [00:05:40] In business, it's, there seems to be, and it's not always the case, but senior people that are like more senior in business, they have more experience. [00:05:50] They, they just tend to have more preferential, you know, setups versus someone that's more, uh, junior.

And, um, and, and you may not [00:06:00] even know what you're getting yourself into. You're just excited to have the opportunity, which in some ways is like. It's not a bad thing. Like think about how much you learned and how much you were able to, like, experience that you would've [00:06:10] never done if you'd have gone and taken this job in Roswell.

Right? So like it's in one way it's, it's like fantastic in another way. Looking back on it, you probably know so much more that you would've, uh, structured things differently and, [00:06:20] and, uh, you know, and all that. So this, this was, these were all in-network. These, these are, I'm assuming, like higher volume, uh, clinics, right?

So what, what was like. The [00:06:30] average daily patient caseload?

Chris: Yeah, I was probably doing at least 20 visits a day. Um, I [00:06:40] think my all time high was right around 130 for the week. Yeah, that's a lot. And so yeah, it was, it was mostly 30 [00:06:50] minute treats, but then we started double booking. And, and, and if that were to happen, yeah, we would.

We would see, uh, close to 115 on average, probably. [00:07:00]

Danny: Yeah. Yeah. How, how have you seen reimbursement change to some degree? Because, you know, now, and we can kind of talk about the nuts and bolts of physio room, but, um, you know, it's, it's a hybrid component to it. [00:07:10] Uh, but have you seen big changes that you've noticed with, uh, reimbursement compared to what you were seeing with this first clinic group?

Chris: [00:07:20] Well, I mean, reimbursement for physio room, being in network, um, is a little different 'cause we have cherry picked just a few of the insurances that we used [00:07:30] to, to see. But like when you take all the insurances in Colorado, I think it's probably one of the least, uh, reimbursed states in the country. I, I think [00:07:40] Aetna will.

It's around $43 a visit. Um, blue Cross is cast at like 65, 70. It's, yeah. Um, so you just, you just [00:07:50] can't take those unless you are double booking those, it's just, yeah. Not a, it's not feasible.

Danny: Yeah. So what, what insurances make sense for physio room, you [00:08:00] know, as far as, uh, the hybrid approach that you guys are running?

Chris: Yeah, I mean, we've kind of looked at it and if I can do that a hundred dollars and above, uh, I [00:08:10] said I would do it. I, I have a passion for the, the older folks. I just enjoyed working with them, and so it was a way to kind of. [00:08:20] Treat the people that I wanted to treat. And um, and it was just really fun. Uh, but yeah, right now, uh, we are [00:08:30] just taking Medicare and Tricare 'cause they're both over a hundred dollars.

And then we do some MVA accidents. There's a third party. Finance company [00:08:40] that will pay us on immediately so we don't have to wait the 1, 2, 3 years out to collect on those liens. So yeah, those are, those are probably the three, like [00:08:50] in-network style where we have to document, you know, ICD 10 codes and all of that.

CCPT

Danny: codes. Yeah, the Medicare thing is interesting. You know, I always felt, um, I, [00:09:00] I agree with you. I didn't actually treat. Uh, older population in the military at all, you know, because it was all basically. [00:09:10] 18 to maybe 30 5-year-old males. Occasionally I'd have somebody a little bit older than that and, and I would also have some females, but I was pri I was primarily in like an infantry division, so I was like young men [00:09:20] only.

Right. Um, which gets kind of boring, uh, as a, after a while versus, uh, having some variance. But, uh, you know, having, having a chance to work in a high volume [00:09:30] clinic as an intern, uh, when I was in school. It was heavy Medicare population. Right. And I actually really did enjoy working with an older population if you're willing to like, listen to them.

[00:09:40] And, uh, they're also like really thankful people. Like, I remember at, at Christmas, just the, the insane amount of bake goods that we would have that would show up, uh, from people that we [00:09:50] hadn't even like worked with in. Months or sometimes years and they just would pop in and drop off a bunt cake. You know, like there's, there's some really like fun elements of that.

So I could see how that hybrid [00:10:00] variation works really well. What about the volume side of that though? Because like if you look at your Medicare population percentage, that makes up schedules, like what, what's that roughly making up of the, [00:10:10] you know, I think you said you had a PR of a thousand visits in, uh, in last month, which is awesome.

Um, but of those a thousand, like how many of those are are Medicare visits?

Chris: [00:10:20] Yeah, we are definitely playing a little bit different game, uh, in that regards. We are trying to keep that payer mix at about 75% cash [00:10:30] Yeah. And 25% those in network. Um, as, as we do that, that keeps my cost per visit, you know. [00:10:40] Closer to that $200 mark, but it's not there.

And so it's, it's still a struggle even with adding a thousand visits a month, it's still, um, that [00:10:50] vol you have to do a lot of volume to make up that, that gap. And, uh, so we're at $180 a visit right now and, and that's just not enough. So we [00:11:00] gotta keep inching our way up. And I think, I think the beauty of hybrid, I think the beauty of the, the system that we're running is I can bring on new clinicians.[00:11:10]

I can have this safety net for them, and they can start to build their schedule. They can start to build their niche, their audience, and then the, the goal, the idea is that they [00:11:20] continue to build their niche audience. They continue to shift into the cash model where they have, uh, a higher cost per visit.

I can pay them more, and then that [00:11:30] allows me to hire the next new one in which they get the safety net. Um, where it becomes a problem is when that clinician doesn't make that leap and doesn't. Develop that niche [00:11:40] and that skillset and they stay in, uh, the insurance side and now that safety net becomes a parachute and it just slows them down.

Danny: Mm-hmm. Yeah. [00:11:50] Yeah. You know, and I mean, you bring up a good point of the average visit rate, you know, what we're seeing. Yeah. Roughly that $200 mark is where people need to be. But if, if, if [00:12:00] you're able to double book somebody, like a lot of. Clinics would do, uh, and they're able to have, you know, uh, two people in there in the hour.

Then to get to that point is. [00:12:10] Uh, than, than obviously if you're treating one-to-one the way that that, uh, that, that you have the, the clinic set up. Um, so part, you know, part of it is that, but, but the volume side [00:12:20] of it and being able to acquire clients like that, um, has its advantages as well. And, and, and you're right on the front end with like newer grads.

There's not as high of expectations per [00:12:30] se, of outcomes, you know. Um, and then with Tricare, it's interesting being in, in, uh, Colorado Springs, big military area. Um, have you found that, that. Insurance in [00:12:40] particular is, uh, you know, it, it's, is a good one to, to take. Um, or is it a huge pain in the, to deal with, you know, having to deal with obviously government, uh, contracts of any sort, [00:12:50] can, can have its own sort of challenges.

Chris: You know, I, I have found Medicare and TRICARE to be both very straightforward. They have their rules, they have their hoops. [00:13:00] As long as you understand them and you jump through them at the right times, like it, it is a very easily manageable system. Um, whereas like when you have a United [00:13:10] Healthcare managed by Optum, yeah.

Now all of a sudden, like they start making up rules like randomly, and you're like, well, this doesn't make any sense. Why does this person get. [00:13:20] Nine visits and this person get three visits. It's, it's just crazy. Um, so yeah, it, it seems to be very straightforward and manageable.

Danny: Yeah. Well, I [00:13:30] think that, from what I've seen, that seems to be the combination that, well, it kinda works best, but it also, you know, it depends on the state, right?

Like I've, I've seen certain states, like Washington, Washington State for [00:13:40] instance. I mean, I've seen contracts where people are getting, you know, 150 to $200, uh, a visit, you know, with, with one-on-one. Now, if that was the case. I [00:13:50] would've taken insurance in my clinic, uh, like immediately, you know, like it just not, not happening in Georgia to, for us to be anywhere near that, uh, at the size clinic that, that we were.

So tell me a [00:14:00] little bit about the setup now. So your staff, like what are their schedules typically look like on a, you know, daily, kind of weekly basis? Like what's, what's their volume at? And, and we, we know the payer mix, so it's [00:14:10] obviously a 75% roughly. Cash is kinda where you're at.

Chris: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's the, the work-life balance that everybody's chasing.

And I think we do a pretty good job of, [00:14:20] of giving that opportunity to our providers. Um, we're 32 visits, um, available a week. That's the requirement to be full-time and, you know, [00:14:30] 90% arrival rate. Uh, we expect our providers to be around 28 visits a week. That's kind of the math that we use to calculate, you know, [00:14:40] salaries and, and, um, compensation packages.

Danny: Yeah, that's, um. That, that's roughly, you know, kind of what we've seen as well. And I think that [00:14:50] 32 is really, I mean, that is very achievable and I, I've found people that come outta school that have not worked in a higher volume clinic [00:15:00] like you have the perspective is, um, challenging in some ways. Because, you know, they may, they may be like, well, that's a lot.

Of, you know, visits, right? It's a lot of volume. And, and you're like, dude, I've seen that [00:15:10] many in a day, uh, before, you know, like, it, it's, it's relative In comparison to your, to your experience, um, how have you found with like, you're, you're good dude, [00:15:20] family, I get it. Family's around the, uh. The, the ability for them to actually like, appreciate that.

Have you found that clinicians that are a bit older and have actually worked in a high volume [00:15:30] clinic, they're like, this is nice, this is like a, a chill job that I can do for a while versus like, have you had any struggles with newer grads that think it's like incredibly hard?

Chris: I don't wanna sound [00:15:40] like the old guy, Danny, but I don't feel like they work as hard as they used to.

Um, so yeah, I tend to look for a little bit, uh, seasoned clinician at this [00:15:50] point. 'cause they've kind of been through the rat race. They, they've been burned by the system a little bit and they truly appreciate the opportunity that we're giving them. Whereas some of [00:16:00] the, the younger, uh, newer grads, there's.

I don't know. There's just like that sense of entitlement and it's, it's harder to, to show them that [00:16:10] the quality of life and that the, the quality of care that we're offering is, is worth it. And they just don't see it. They just see it as a job and, and it's, they don't [00:16:20] appreciate it as much as I wish they would.

Danny: I think it's just hard to have that perspective. I mean, that's kind of what I've noticed too, even with, with new grads that we've hired that um, you know, like [00:16:30] we've had people we've hired and they're like. Dude, I'm get, I feel like I'm getting burned out or like, you've been in the job for six months.

Like you've literally, you've been outta school for. A [00:16:40] year, you know, like, uh, or, or, or less maybe you pick the wrong career field. Like I think it's more of a, um, like if you, if you feel like what we're doing is, [00:16:50] um, is killing you, then, you know, maybe it is just you pick the wrong profession and that's a bummer to hear after you just spent seven years, you know, getting a, getting a degree.

And I, [00:17:00] I would agree. I, I find that once people have some perspective for like what high volume feels like, and, and it's not even just the volume, it's literally. The ability to go a little bit deeper with [00:17:10] people and generate, you know, like an actual relationship, build trust, help them, you know, really create these lifelong changes.

That's really personally rewarding. And when, when, when you're [00:17:20] unable to do that because you feel more like a waiter and you're bouncing around a clinic and then all of a sudden you get to go back to a bit more of a pure relationship, I find that the people that really want to do that tend to be. The [00:17:30] clinicians that really value their outcomes, they're, they take a lot of pride in those.

And that's, at the end of the day, who we wanna hire for the most part. A hundred percent.

Chris: A hundred percent. [00:17:40] You know, and it's, it's one of those things where we look for those folk that have like these passions because right, if you, if you do what you love, you don't ever work a day in your life. [00:17:50] And when we can invest in those folk.

Um, I got one guy right now and he's, he has, he does bike fits for us. He has people driving from Steamboat Sida 3, 3, [00:18:00] 4 hours away just to come see this guy for bike fits. And we've invested in him and it was a lot of money and, um, but he's. He's been with me for four [00:18:10] years and he's solid. He's consistent, and, and I think that's part of it is if you invest in your people, they're happy to come to work and, and [00:18:20] that, that's been a big culture shift from maybe the previous place that I was at to where we are now.

Danny: Yeah. Well, tell me a little bit about this, the sort of team setup of [00:18:30] physio room now. So like, how many clinicians do you have? Who's in leadership positions? Like kind of what does the org chart look like?

Chris: Oh, it's, it's far bigger than I ever imagined, that's for [00:18:40] sure. Uh, we have 19, 20 people at this point.

Um, 16 clinicians. Um, uh, some front office and then the [00:18:50] countless number of backend people from social media to accounting and all the, all the supplementary folk that it takes to run a business. So, but in, in-house on [00:19:00] day-to-day operations, we, we have 16 providers, um, probably, which of, there's probably 11 full-time employees.

Uh, so we have a few [00:19:10] part-time, but mostly full. Um, we have. Three main locations and one small satellite location at a golf club. [00:19:20] So four total clinics. Um, and so the three main locations each have a clinic director and, and so each clinic director is in our leadership team. [00:19:30] Um, so, uh, and then we have our, uh, front desk, um, operations officer.

Um, and she is a part of the leadership team. So we have, [00:19:40] uh. Five people on the leadership team at this point, um, and three clinic directors.

Danny: So your front desk, [00:19:50] uh, leadership. So is that centralized because of the different locations you have or do you have like a, a forward facing person at each individual location minus the satellite office and then you, [00:20:00] you have like a centralized leadership person for that because like that, that seems to me to be.

It can go both ways in regards to what I've seen work, uh, I see some people try to really [00:20:10] be lean and other people, they lean into that and they want to, uh, invest in their client experience as, as there's somebody kind of spearheading that. So how are you guys running that?

Chris: Yeah. This [00:20:20] is a passion project of mine for sure.

I think. One of our, uh, most important positions is that front desk position. So I lean very heavily [00:20:30] into the front desk position, um, and I pay them very well. Uh, and so they take all my calls. They are the client experience specialist, that [00:20:40] is their title. And, uh, when we, when we run ads for that position, it's client experience specialist.

Sales. Um, so they do both. Uh, and I, [00:20:50] I think it really is helpful when we put a provider there at each location. They are there to help with the culture. Um, in that [00:21:00] clinic, you see culture go up because they're helping. They hear stuff, they report back. You can help. Solve problems that you didn't even know that you had.

Um, [00:21:10] from internally and externally from clients and from providers, they're helping me solve problems. And so I, I love having a front desk at each [00:21:20] location. It has been really helpful and we get such great feedback from all the clients that we have. And, um, it, it does help grow the clinic. Uh, we just, uh, we didn't [00:21:30] have one in Colorado Springs recently and, and.

We just hired a young lady down there, and she's only working part-time, but even her part-time schedule on Colorado Springs, you're starting to [00:21:40] see the graph go up. You're starting to see the number of visits go up because people go out, they chat with her and then they, they book out their plan of care for the entirety.

They don't just do this one week at a time and then [00:21:50] fall off, and so now they're starting to become more consistent, you know? Stability in the schedules, and to me that's worth its weight and gold. I [00:22:00] will pay that person, you know, 20, $30 an hour to, to create these sales that I would've lost otherwise.

Danny: Yeah. Have you found, with fragmenting the sales [00:22:10] imbalance, so obviously it's like each location, there's somebody that's running the front desk, they're, they're having those conversations. Have you found that? There's a significant difference between, [00:22:20] uh, conversion percentages with different, uh, front desk that you have.

Are they relatively similar? What's and what's the benchmark that you wanna see for somebody in that position? Because you're obviously positioning it [00:22:30] as a sales position as well.

Chris: Yeah, yeah. I think this is, this is one of those positions where you hire people. And you don't hire [00:22:40] positions. And so with the people that we've brought in, they're very warm, they're very genuine.

They, they truly care. And I tell 'em that like, we're not [00:22:50] selling anything on the front desk. We're just listening to the problems that these people have and offering solutions. And you guys do that. If you believe in the product that we serve, [00:23:00] you can sell this and you don't have to be salesy. And so I really.

I have a great, um, lead, um, with Alex at that position, and [00:23:10] she trains everybody how to do it. And I don't see a huge difference between clinic to clinic on that conversion. Now, as you [00:23:20] grow, you see a decrease in your conversions because not everybody is a really hot lead. You start getting more cold leads from Google, you start getting more cold leads from maybe some paid [00:23:30] ads that you do.

And so we, we do see probably. A 60% conversion on some of those colder ones. [00:23:40] But I, I would venture to say on, on those hot leads, it's still close to that 80% marker that we used to, used to have.

Danny: Yeah. Yeah. That, and there's, it's so interesting because there's so [00:23:50] many different ways to look at that in terms of, that's obviously a big.

A big, um, you know, pain point or it's a really big, uh, drop off point for some [00:24:00] people and it can make or break obviously like your clinic conversions. But at the same time, like the, the office managers that we hired at Alex Potential, who, she's still there, uh, [00:24:10] fantastic. Way better in the office than on the phone.

And what we found with her was. Like, people will come back just to talk to her. People will come back [00:24:20] just because they, like, they'll send a friend who, uh, that, you know, maybe is, has an injury, but they're like, more than anything, they're like, well, you gotta just go talk to Claire for a second. Like, she's [00:24:30] awesome.

Like, and she's there the, you know, almost every single day. And, and that customer experience side of things is so valuable, um, that. In [00:24:40] a way, like the clinicians now take the calls, um, because they convert at such a higher rate, but she, she's triaging those. So like what we found, and there's, and this is why it's interesting, there's just different ways [00:24:50] to do this.

You know, where it's like, if this is a, if this is like a shoe in, cool, then you go ahead and you get 'em set up and you, you know, that, that's sort of the approach. But if it's, uh, [00:25:00] harder or something that you feel like you can't answer or something that better for a clinician to answer, then. You set a, you set a call on that call for them to talk to one of the docs, and then they converted a much higher percentage because there's obviously a lot [00:25:10] more authority around that.

Um, but, but figuring that out took some time. And, and originally we didn't want her to do that, uh, and we saw conversions go down, which is hard to watch when you know, Hey, if I, I [00:25:20] could talk to who knows how many people and I'll convert 90% of 'em, whatever. Uh, so, you know, for, for what you're doing at scale.

What have you found internally with your own training? [00:25:30] This like the 80 20 of somebody really what they need to focus on for that position. Like what are the 20% of things that really get them to that 80% benchmark where they're, they're a asset to the clinic and [00:25:40] not a liability anymore?

Chris: Oh man. That, that's really hard and I think I would just take a step back [00:25:50] and go from the higher level and say.

It's the mindset, right? And, and that's why we're all in, in the PT biz community. [00:26:00] Uh, or at least that's why I've stayed in the PT biz community is is the mindset, right? And your, your mindset is what drives [00:26:10] culture. And your culture eats strategy for breakfast. And I think that's the, the thing is like.[00:26:20]

Everybody around the clinic is helping support that front desk, and, and they're, they're giving her the mindset and they're breeding this culture that, that thrives on [00:26:30] itself. And it's taken me a long time to see that. But you always read in the leadership books, like, oh, once you get a good culture, people will hold each other [00:26:40] accountable.

And I'm starting to see that for the first time in 14 years where like this ecosystem is building on itself and [00:26:50] growing and, and we have such a great team. So I feel like as long as we keep making those culture fit type hires and they're willing to grow and develop with us, that our [00:27:00] team and our ecosystem will, will be that 20% that gives me the 80%.

Danny: Dude, no doubt. I feel like every time I've ever hired it's, it's, it's so funny, there's different opinions on this, but like [00:27:10] I, I look for culture over anything else. You know, there's very few skills that I feel like I can't help somebody learn or train or, you know, that we can, that we can, um, help [00:27:20] improve.

But the, the culture fits side is so important. On, on the same side, like you, I think you have to be careful as well that you're not just bringing [00:27:30] people in that, that you. That only view the world the same way that you do. Right. Especially as your team gets bigger. Because what you're talking about is the ability to, [00:27:40] yes, to, to hold standards, but also I think it's an echo chamber if everybody literally thinks exactly the same way and there's not room to ha hear other people's opinions.

So [00:27:50] there is a balance there between, we have a culture of, of, you know, excellence and, but also we have a cul, we have a culture of. Openness in terms of being able to express how you feel about [00:28:00] something and being taken as a professional instead of, like, I, I was a part of a culture in the military that was very top down, you know, it's like you're my boss's boss, so I gotta do what you say and, and you don't [00:28:10] really care what I have to say because it doesn't matter at the end of the day.

And that's not necessarily a good place to work either. So how would you describe the culture that you have at at Physio Root? 'cause it sounds like it's really [00:28:20] evolved over the last, you know, decade plus.

Chris: Yeah. Well, I think you have to embrace it with, you know, humility, right? And being humble because I [00:28:30] just got called out this week on something and it, it stung a little bit.

Yeah. And, but that's part of the culture. I want to get better and I know that I have [00:28:40] someone else on my leadership team that has like an entirely different perspective than me, and maybe they see the world different than I do, which is great because she [00:28:50] sees the world different. She's doing things different and she's really good and I really respect this person.

And so when you get all these different perspectives, it really [00:29:00] helps round out that, that system. Um, and so I, I enjoy that. But yeah, we, we lean into those core values, um, heavily [00:29:10] with, with client-centric, go further together. Um, all of our core values that we have.

Danny: I think the humility side is challenging with, [00:29:20] it's the hardest part honestly, when, um, you have to realize that like you're either doing something not as well as you should, or you [00:29:30] don't know something as, as well as you should, or maybe there's a better way.

That's not the way that you came up with, right? Like that is, um, that's [00:29:40] really hard, but also important to. Check, check those things and, and have a culture where people are willing to, to tell you what [00:29:50] they think, because if not, then they're just, they're scared that, you know, they're, they're gonna get, uh, you know, whatever yelled at in front of everybody, or they're gonna, you're gonna make them feel like an [00:30:00] idiot or dismiss them or whatever.

And I think that's like a silent. Culture killer, you know? Um, do you have, uh, opportunities where people can, you know, be a part of, you know, [00:30:10] planning and goal setting, or is that more leadership and then that disseminates down? Like how are you overall kind of setting the tone for like the year or the quarters within physio room at this [00:30:20] point?

Chris: Oh, yeah. I think this is a shock to a lot of people. We just hired a director from a, a clinic. Across town, and she's coming in and I'm giving her permission to [00:30:30] give feedback, take ownership of certain projects, and, and she's like, wait a second. Normally I'd get in trouble if I had too many ideas and I, I [00:30:40] give our people the autonomy and the power to make some decisions.

Now it's, it's my job, right? To set the boundaries and to like create the sidelines. But they're the ones running the [00:30:50] game. They're the ones playing in the trenches. They get, they have that power. And I, I want that feedback 'cause I'm not in the day to day [00:31:00] ev all the time. So I don't know what problems need to be solved and, um, they have to bring that in.

So we have our weekly team meetings, right? And so we do. These [00:31:10] discussions where we identify the problem and we discuss it, we solve it, whatever, and we, we come up with that on the weekly basis and we, we talk about, what's that way? We're all on the same [00:31:20] page. And then, yeah, we, our quarter, our quarterly meetings with the leadership team, we set those rocks, right?

And we, we disseminate that down and say, Hey, this is our focus. We're gonna do [00:31:30] X, Y, and Z for marketing sales. You know, we're gonna try and increase cost per visit. These are the strategies that we're gonna execute for the next 90 days. This is our focus. What problems do we [00:31:40] have? What solutions can we come up with like to achieve these goals?

And we just talk about that 90 days sprints.

Danny: Yeah. That, that seems to work really well in terms of getting [00:31:50] everybody on the same page. You know, I, I, I feel like for you now that you're coaching, uh, and have been for a while, you know, it's, it's a different perspective that we get a chance to take to our businesses now that we [00:32:00] are, uh, mentoring other people with theirs.

Like, I feel like when I became a clinical mentor and I started teaching continuing education courses, um, I became a [00:32:10] far better. Clinician because of that. 'cause I had to be able to, um, educate people in a way, uh, like educating a group of people is so [00:32:20] much harder than like one-to-one. And if, but if you can, if even if you can go to one-to-one, it makes you better as a clinician because you've had to clarify your frameworks.

You have to clarify your rationale for [00:32:30] why you're doing that. Taking on a student and them asking you. A billion why questions of why you're doing things. It's, it can't just be like, well, 'cause that's just the way it works. You know? Like that's not a good answer. You have to [00:32:40] build to clarify that. So for you now as a coach, how has that helped you?

With your own business, you know, and, and in what ways has that been really beneficial?

Chris: I would [00:32:50] probably say that I've learned more over the last one to two years coaching than I have in the previous, you know, 10, 11 years of ownership. [00:33:00] It is just like you said, it just, you get at a very granular level and you see patterns, um, just like you see patterns in pt.

Uh, I would say that the one big pattern that I have [00:33:10] noticed. From the members in the Mastermind and and reflected in myself is I wasn't thinking big enough. Mm-hmm. With my goals. I wasn't [00:33:20] thinking big enough for my goals for my team, and I think that's probably one of the biggest mistakes that I see is like people don't want to pay their top talent.

Very much. And [00:33:30] I feel like if you set the expectations and you create this black and white like trajectory for your clinicians to make as much money [00:33:40] as they possibly can, that is the success of the business. And too many times we, we see these, uh, owners try to be like, oh, I can't [00:33:50] pay them very much. I can't pay them.

I'm like, well, how can you, let's come up with that solution on how we can, and not why we can't. And, and that is probably something that I [00:34:00] am working on myself is, is creating these, um, I hate to say corporate ladders, but having these milestones and these stepping stones to [00:34:10] get to big money for these providers.

Yeah,

Danny: that's a great point. You know, the, I, I agree. I think that setting a goal. [00:34:20] Any kind of goal, it's very easy for us to wanna set achievable goal. 'cause it feels good to like check a box to, uh, you know, say, yeah, great, we, hey, we hit our numbers [00:34:30] this year. Right? But if you set these like tiny growth goals or these like very achievable goals, it's not very helpful.

Versus I'd rather somebody set a, a, a much harder stretch goal and get halfway there [00:34:40] and they're still twice as far as as they were if they set these like really, really tiny goals. Um, you know, the flip side of that, what you're talking about on the compensation side is. Is, is, [00:34:50] is a challenging, is a challenging problem.

I think it's actually one of the bigger problems that people are facing right now because the, the, the, the actual compensation, [00:35:00] you know, it, it's, it needs to be tied to revenue in the business and for a lot of these businesses. They still are undercharging, they're still like not adding in. Um, things that [00:35:10] are revenue producing that maybe aren't just visits and their revenue per provider is still, is still too low.

Now, when you scale and you have, you know, 15 providers like you [00:35:20] do, uh, it changes it because you've now you, you've now added volume to the mix, versus if you have like one or two people, that's where it gets really hard. So for an owner to go through that stage. [00:35:30] To then get to the point where they can then bring on, you know, a third, fourth, fifth provider and have, uh, really like the scale through the volume of providers that they have.

Like, they gotta get through the trenches of that [00:35:40] really shitty profit stage, which sucks. It's like, it's literally like profit purgatory. It's the worst place to be, you know? So, but, but you know, when you're talking to these people about, Hey, you gotta compensate your people well, [00:35:50] like, like what is it that, that there is resonating with them?

Because I think that this is one of the harder things that entrepreneurs have to come to the conclusion of is that. We can't make the same mistake that's being [00:36:00] made in these high volume clinics where they're paying people like shit. And they're obviously getting burnt out and frustrated. Like, we want to create a better model.

But at the same time, it's scary when you have very little profit. [00:36:10]

Chris: Yeah. And I think that's, that's where we currently are, is, is trying to challenge the status quo. Um, and what got us [00:36:20] here isn't gonna get us to the next level. And, um. I am reading this book called The Science, the Science of Scaling right now.

And I just keep going back [00:36:30] to this like, we'll set a goal that just seems so unrealistic and put a timeframe on it that just seems so unrealistic and you're gonna grow fast. And I saw that in [00:36:40] the very beginning of physio room. Like we grew, like we doubled. We went from two 50 to 500, 500 to a million million to we're on track for 1.7.[00:36:50]

It's crazy. And. When you get stagnant, you don't grow. And then I think that's probably where we're at with the industry of cash PT right now is, [00:37:00] are the cash packages the way that we're going? Is it something else? Can we do these bolt-on and have this, um, [00:37:10] whatever you call it, time-based offer or whatever it is.

And I think that's ultimately where I'm at right now with. My clinic director, she wants to make really, really big money, [00:37:20] but you, you can only do two things. You can only charge more per visit or you can see more visits and, and she doesn't wanna see any more visits. So there's only one solution and we just have to [00:37:30] make more money per visit.

And so coming up with those strategies that. Feel genuine, authentic, and true to her. And, and, and something that she can really own is, is [00:37:40] probably the strategy that we're, we're moving towards at the moment.

Danny: Yeah. And there's, there's a lot of options out, I mean, outside of visits, just traditional visits per se, but, um, [00:37:50] and sometimes they align with the clinic niche, you know, that, that, uh, you have sometimes they do not.

Um, you know, and the tried and true sort of method is, yeah, it's, it's [00:38:00] like any service-based provider. I mean, if you are a. Lawyer, an accountant, an engineer. Like there's like billable work, right? That they, that they [00:38:10] have, and then it's at times their, uh, their billable rate, and that's what they pay people.

Like for instance, my, my buddy, uh, who presented, uh, in Atlanta, uh, [00:38:20] John Yoker, he's a veterinarian and he, um, he does. Veterinary, you know, business consulting at this point. He's a partner in another practice here in Georgia still. And the compensation [00:38:30] model that we were talking about, uh, last week, we, we were, he's in my R group and I was, I was, uh, walking with him that morning and he was like, yeah, man, we pay 22% [00:38:40] of, um, revenue generated, uh, to the provider.

And I was like, oh, that seems low, right? And he goes, yeah, but a provider at our clinic will do about a million dollars in work on an [00:38:50] annual basis right now. That's not happening for a physical therapist. Like it's no chance. Right? So yeah, a vet can make. 220, 200 [00:39:00] $50,000, you know, whatever range. And if they're super productive, like it can be even higher than that.

Versus for us, like if we did 22% of what somebody's generating, I mean they're gonna make like [00:39:10] $55,000. You know? So it's, uh, if, if it's even a pretty efficient clinic, so the model's not the same. Right. And, and um, and that's where it's challenging. 'cause I do think that per [00:39:20] provider revenue is really the factor that has to be able to change.

And it may or may not just be tied straight to visits. And that's where it, it is fun in some ways to try to work through some of these. [00:39:30] Um, but also challenging because changing anything in a business is always like really, you know, is, is is difficult for people to do. So, I don't know, man. Um, I, I'd love to know what, what you think as far as like, you know, on a, on [00:39:40] a 30,000 foot view, right?

Like you're, you're a pilot, you fly around, you see things from different perspective. Uh, what do you see as like biggest opportunities within this space, you know, over the next, let's call [00:39:50] it five years.

Chris: Oh, that's such a great question. Um. People, people are excited [00:40:00] about what we're doing. There's no AI that's gonna reproduce the relationships and the manual and, and Oh, true.

Some of that, I mean, maybe some clinical decision making [00:40:10] on exercise prescription perhaps with some apps. But yeah, I would say that there is, that it's, it has to be. The combo [00:40:20] of integrating some AI into the practice and creating these, these platforms where I can treat this person in, in [00:40:30] clinic, but then they're still getting a a, a program.

That they can follow on the monthly basis. I, I think that there is these products that [00:40:40] we will be able to sell and it's not just selling visits. I think that's probably what is gonna happen. Um, 'cause you're gonna see a lot of those virtual [00:40:50] PT and the. The weakness with virtual PT is there's just no in-person and there's no deep relationship.

So I think when you combine the two, um, [00:41:00] there's that, and then business is hard, right? Sure. There's no, there's no doubt about it. Like owning a business seems to be sexy, and [00:41:10] it is the furthest thing from being sexy. It is hard, it's gritty. It, it is not sexy. But a lot of people wanna open up businesses and some of them [00:41:20] aren't gonna be cut out for it.

And I think there's opportunities to then bring those people into, for the, for the businesses that learn the systems, learn how to scale, and learn how to [00:41:30] grow and have good leadership. I think there is opportunity, and we, we've seen it a couple of times already. I've been approached by other providers [00:41:40] in, in our current area that wanna sell.

And I'm like, all right, well what does mergers and acquisitions look like? What exactly are you buying? What's that worth? Uh, but I, I think [00:41:50] there's gonna be a lot of these solo one two micro clinic. Um, PT practices that, you know, you can start to grow and [00:42:00] scale with that because the traditional model of pt, we all know that is, that's, that's a dying breed.

And, and what we're doing is, is the next wave, but [00:42:10] not everybody's cut out to do it.

Danny: Yeah, I think that's spot on and. The consolidation is just a matter of time. I [00:42:20] mean, because for instance, you're right, like if somebody starts a clinic, if you wanna start a clinic and you want to be, um, you, you want it to be a lifestyle business, you wanna replace [00:42:30] your, your, um.

Your salary working somewhere else and more like, that's very possible if you just wanna stay small. Uh, but, but that's not a real business, right? You just created another job for yourself, which that might be [00:42:40] what you want. And there's nothing wrong with that because that, that might be exactly what you, makes you happy in and is the right fit for your family.

The. The, the next step though for a lot of people is where I see a lot of [00:42:50] people get sideswiped by business and that's when they actually have to like, take on more overhead. Their profit margins drop. They get really scared because, you know, they, they have been able to [00:43:00] bootstrap everything. Um, and if they don't push past that first, second and get to that third provider, then they end up realizing that this is a really bad business to own unless you are [00:43:10] gonna actually like, grow a, a, a slightly bigger business than that.

And that puts you in a far more stable position. Well, for a lot of people that stage, um, they underestimate how challenging that is. [00:43:20] And when they're there, now all of a sudden they start looking backwards and saying, wow, uh, that wasn't so bad. Where, where, you know, I just was in a little office and it was just me and I didn't have any employees or any [00:43:30] overhead, which is, which is not the, that is not necessarily the mentality that you can have to, to run a business.

Like, you just can't. You gotta, you gotta like, head [00:43:40] down. You're into it. Like you're, you're going forward until you hit these certain sizes that you're at. But for a lot of people, they're gonna realize maybe I'm not cut out for business. And somebody like yourself literally [00:43:50] might be able to say, cool, now you know what you don't want.

Come on over here, join our team. And that's a great person. That can be a fantastic intrapreneur. Maybe that's a far better fit for them. And they didn't know until they experienced that [00:44:00] for themself. So I feel like we're gonna see a lot of that, uh, my, these really small clinics. And then we're gonna see bigger clinics really be able to systemize, consolidate, and give better opportunities while still not.

[00:44:10] Killing people with volume. Uh, and it's, it's gonna happen. I think it'll be fragmented, you know, regionally, but potentially on a bigger scale. I think that's something that will, will [00:44:20] eventually happen. I mean, it happened in, in-network clinics. It happened with almost any healthcare, uh, group that you look at.

And, and on the AI side, I think you're totally right, dude. People I think are going to want [00:44:30] human, uh, like connection, uh, more and more because there's gonna be so much non-human connection and. The in-person [00:44:40] side of your body being taken care of, somebody else who has a body is a very, like, trustworthy thing.

Right. Versus, um, even, I don't know, at the stages where we get to a point where there's robots. [00:44:50] Like, I'm not gonna have a robot dry needling on my neck anytime soon or like manipulating my back. Or like, I just, I want to talk to another person as well that I can connect with. I think that is a very, very [00:45:00] valuable part of our profession that is not going anywhere.

Chris: Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent.

Danny: Dude, let's end with this. Um. What's next for physio room? What, what do you guys got going on? [00:45:10] Like what, what, what are you working on? What's, what's a cool project that you can shout out? And also, you know, if somebody's interested in joining the team, you know, what, what, what does that look like for, for people?

You're looking for what's, what's the buy box for them [00:45:20] to say like, this is perfect for physio room. Uh, team member.

Chris: Yeah. Yeah, we're always hiring. Um, we've got a contact us form on the website and join our team right there. You can [00:45:30] follow all those links and, and instructions. But yeah, I mean, uh, next for physio room is, uh, we're, we're buying a building.

Um, [00:45:40] we're. Staying in the current space that we're at and we're buying it and we're expanding the gym, we're gonna be building out a little bit more of the, the pelvic side of physio room and we've got [00:45:50] a great, uh, clinician that is gonna help us lead that. So I'm really excited about the growth opportunities and, and the.

The Denver, uh, south metro market. [00:46:00] And then, um, big time growth happening down in Colorado Springs. We've got one of the coolest clinics I've ever been in. You walk out the, the back of the CrossFit gym that it, [00:46:10] um, we just took over. You got Pike's Peak right there. The view is just spectacular. Yeah. Um, and the growth opportunity down there is, um.

[00:46:20] Significant. So yeah, we're really excited about the growth and, um, our team is, is growing and, and the culture is great. So yeah, we're really excited about the opportunities [00:46:30] ahead.

Danny: Well, where can, uh, people go if they're interested in learning more about physio rooms? Where can we point 'em?

Chris: Yeah, we're both on, uh, all the socials at Physio Room Co.[00:46:40]

And then, uh, our website is physio room co.com and you can reach me at, uh, [email protected]. So if you have any questions, happy to [00:46:50] answer anything and just pass it forward.

Danny: Sweet. I appreciate it, man. And, and Chris, so fun to highlight what you're doing guys. Chris is one of our, uh, one of our awesome coaches.

It's like [00:47:00] just, it's just so fun to be able to work with people as talented as you, even internally, as you're helping our community, you know, continue to grow and evolve and, um, it's just fun to be able to share what you're doing with your own clinics, right? [00:47:10] Because oftentimes you're talking to everybody else about, about theirs.

Uh, so, uh, anyway, man, I appreciate, uh, you catching up with me today. And, uh, as always, hey, thank you so much for watching and listening and we'll catch you [00:47:20] on the next one.