E662 | All Things Physical Therapy With Shante Cofield

In this episode of the podcast, host Doc Danny and Shante dive into the challenges that many physical therapists face when they want to transition away from direct patient care and explore other areas of the profession. They touch upon the physical and mental demands that often lead to burnout, and how reimbursement rates may not match the value of care provided. However, they caution against making hasty decisions and encourage PTs to identify the specific aspects they dislike about their current role or workplace before making any changes. They emphasize that small changes can sometimes improve the situation.

For those PTs considering starting their own businesses, Danny and Shante stress the importance of understanding that running a business requires a completely different skillset than clinical work. They discuss the misconception surrounding the perceived lifestyle of online business coaches and gurus, highlighting the dedication and effort required over many years to build expertise, an audience, and replace a clinical income. They emphasize that true time freedom takes significant work.

Furthermore, the hosts suggest that PTs should acquire basic business and tech skills to lessen their dependence on outsourcing. They emphasize the importance of taking ownership of their "digital infrastructure" to future-proof their businesses. While flexibility in working hours and locations may be appealing, Danny and Shante remind PTs that it doesn't mean no work at all. They stress the importance of consistently working on tasks such as content creation and relationship-building to truly reap the benefits.

In conclusion, this episode provides realistic insights into managing expectations for career transitions within the PT profession. Danny and Shante emphasize the necessity of informed, gradual steps rather than quick fixes or outsourcing solutions. Listeners gain valuable advice on gaining more flexibility and control over their time while still putting in the necessary work to succeed as a PT.

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Podcast Transcript

Danny: [00:00:00] Hey, real quick, if you are serious about starting or growing your cash based practice, I want to formally invite you to go to Facebook and join our PT entrepreneurs Facebook group. This is a group of over 6, 000 providers all over the country, and it's a pretty amazing place to start to get involved in the conversation.

Hope to see you there soon. Hey, are you a physical therapist looking to leverage your skillset in a way that helps you create time and financial freedom for yourself and your family? If so, you're in the right spot. My name is Danny Matei and over the last 15 years, I've done pretty much everything you can in the profession.

I've been a staff PT. I've been an active duty military officer, physical therapist. I've started my own cash practice. I've sold that cash practice. And today my company physical therapy business helped over a thousand clinicians start growing scale, their own cash practices. So if this sounds like something you want to do, listen up, cause I'm here to help you.

Hey, what's going on? Dr. Danny here with the PT entrepreneur podcast, and man, we have got a. Epic podcast for you today, I get a chance to chat [00:01:00] and catch up with Shante Cofield and we get a chance to talk about. All things physical therapy, clinic, clinician topics, if you're not a physical therapist business just life in general personal development, what we're reading things that we're seeing in terms of trends in the profession.

And what's cool about this is, Shanta is a friend of mine who has been, moving in a slightly different direction in the profession where she was a physical therapist treated had her own. Cash practice started teaching for rock tape and really developed an online personal brand that allowed her to really move towards more business coaching as far as developing your own personal brand is concerned.

I think she's done a better job than most people with being able to take a not a a Relatively small in comparison, 50 to a hundred thousand person following on Instagram and really turn it into a thriving digital digital business. So she really [00:02:00] comes at this discussion from the side of really working with a lot more digital business owners.

And for me, I primarily work with brick and mortar business owners. Even though PT biz is a digital business, right? We do not have a physical in person location. So it's nice to be able to talk to people that are in the industry, but are in Different sub niches of it and seeing what they see and to share what I'm seeing and be able to have a discussion about about many different things.

So I hope that you enjoy this one. I know this is a long one. We don't usually go this long, but actually we ended up chatting for about three hours cause we were catching up on so many other things that. We just don't get a chance to see each other as much as I wish we did. But anyway, I hope you like this one.

This is a varying, topic based podcast. We're going to get all kinds of different little business nuggets and information in there. So I hope you like it. If you do, and you like this style of a of a podcast, we'll definitely try to do more of. Of those, and maybe not quite just as tactical.

We obviously will have plenty of that, but some more of those are like [00:03:00] higher level discussions. That's hopefully you can get something you really unique out of and enjoy. So anyway, hope you enjoy this one and we'll catch you later. What's going on doc. Danny here with the PTO podcast, and I'm here with.

Probably one of my favorite people, not just in the profession, but I would say in the United States of America, for sure. I don't know many people outside of it. So Chante Coffield, the Movement Maestro, AKA also the host of Maestro on the Mic, which is a great podcast. And you also have a fantastic Friday newsletter.

You're it's not Friday, you're, what day does yours

Shante: come out? Whenever I write it, but it's usually weekly. Yeah, I'm not as consistent of the same day as you, but it

Danny: is weekly. I just said Friday because that's what mine is. But it's a fantastic newsletter packed with all kinds of great information.

So if you're not on her newsletter, definitely go sign up for that. Head over to to get signed up and get all the latest business information that you're sharing. And I like your stories. You do a good job of of storytelling, which I think. Obviously is a great way to market, but also it's enjoyable.

You don't feel [00:04:00] like you're learning something, but it's, but I feel like you're retaining it in a much better way. Short telling is hard though. Do you feel like, do you feel like as a kid, you were naturally. Telling a bunch of stories or did you read a book one day and were like, Oh, storytelling is helpful.

And then you started to lean into it. I

Shante: think it's just the way that one, thank you for the kindest words ever. And the feeling is very mutual. Danny and I just talked for I don't know, an hour before we started this and I was like, maybe, I guess we should do the podcast

Danny: now. We should have recorded it.

You're right. I just don't yeah. People would listen. Yeah. They probably would have listened. They probably would have

Shante: listened. It's not a nonsense

Danny: talk. We could just go, we could just talk about nothing again for another... People won't listen.

Shante: This is where people are at, right? I think that people...

We're in the information age. I think that people are getting information from everywhere from a zillion sources at once and largely people are saying the same thing and it's just like finding someone that you like how they say it and they're saying it at the right time and they, you resonate with them for whatever reason, a zillion reasons outside of actually what they're actually saying.

And to that end, especially if you have a shared [00:05:00] audience and they've heard things before, it's just People want to hear about the human and the person and I know that ties in the question you just asked about storytelling like I think it's like the talk I was telling you earlier, I have four three siblings.

I am the oldest and my yes, my next closest is eight years younger. So for a very long time, I was an only child. And I think that honestly, Danny, I just had to like, entertain myself. And so I just talk a lot. So it comes out as whether it's story or whether it's just how I want to share this point. I think it was a product of just inherent a gift, but also I am entertaining myself and just talking

Danny: and getting practice.

That's interesting, because you have elements of a, like single child, right? So just only child, because you're, you were until you were eight. Then, but then they caught up pretty substantially. You got three siblings in like what's the age difference with

Shante: them?

So there's two that are really close to each other. And then there's a third one that's farther. So Justin is eight years younger, Cecilia is 10 years younger, and then Daniel is. [00:06:00] 18 years younger. So there's a big spread. Yeah. Oh yeah. I went to college and carried him in the, I don't know what the thing is called.

It's not a bassinet, but like the little carrier. And definitely people were like, is that your child or cause it's big ass age difference

Danny: there. That's huge. My Ashley, my wife's mom had her older brother. I think she was 18. She might've just been 19 and she had both of them in the same calendar year.

Oh, wow. I know. The Irish twins, I believe they call it. Hopefully don't get, I dunno if that's a canceled term. I dunno if I could say that. . I don't wanna say the wrong thing, but that's what I think it's okay. That's what I've heard it as. Exactly. That's what I've heard. I was the other day, I was like I saw my kids and I was like, oh, you guys, they're like acting like they were kinda she against like you guys playing talent cowboys and Indians.

And my kids were like whoa, you canceled dad. They're like, you can't say that. I go, it's, they go, it's cowboys and Native Americans. I go, that doesn't sound the same. It's just it's harder to say, but I agree. It is. Sure. And they're like you don't want people being confused that they think it's Indian people chasing cowboys around.

And I go, in what world would [00:07:00] Indians from the country of India chase cowboys around in this American Southwest? Like impossible. It doesn't make any sense. They were like, you know what? You're right. It doesn't. But you can't say it. But you can't say it anyway, dad. Yeah. But anyway, but they, super young. She was 18, 19 years old.

They had, I think three of them before she was 20. Can you imagine?

Shante: No, Danny. Danny, I'm 38. I have no kids. No, I can't imagine being, having three before I'm 20.

Danny: But people thought that you were, you're, sibling was yours. Cause it could have happened. It could have. It could

Shante: have. Totally. No way.

No way. No way. That's

Danny: cool. So you went, so you got, all right, some alone time for eight years, but then you had to be. You're like helping raise them. You're part of, you're wiping butts, I'm assuming,

Shante: right? Changing diapers? I'm trying to remember if I, like, how many of the diaper changing.

All I remember is an overwhelming feeling of I don't want kids. Not because I didn't like them, but I saw very early the responsibility that was required. I never, I wasn't like an eight year old or a seven year old that was like, I can't wait to be a mom and have kids. That was never there anyway.

But then definitely, for the rest of [00:08:00] my, life, I saw the responsibility that was required. And I've always known, we've talked about before of the lifestyle business. I've always known that's like some, that was that feeling there that I want something like that. And I was like, that's going to be real hard with all the responsibility that I see is required.

Now, I'm 18 and I see how much is going into this. I'm like, no, this is not, it's not for me.

Danny: That's interesting. Because I have friends who come from like bigger families with a big gap like that and it was the opposite, right? They experienced and they're like, Oh man, I feel like, this is like what I need to do.

And, but I agree, like kids are a lot, not only is it a lot of time, it's a lot of just. Mental bandwidth as well. You're constantly worried about the shit that they're either doing or not doing, or maybe they're not doing enough of or not doing well enough. Or maybe, they're just, there's just all these things that really probably don't matter that you think about.

And because you're not yeah, exactly. But the other thing is, it's not like they give you training on this shit whenever you have a baby. It's [00:09:00] a, it is the craziest thing to me. I think about when we had Jack and they just let you go home with this

Shante: living thing, living

Danny: being, it's not a. It's not a puppy, it's not a person, human and you can really mess somebody up if you, I'm not talking physical, I'm talking mentally, think about how many people like, I know lots of people and they've got a lot of men, they have a lot of baggage they carry around because of their upbringing, typically it's their family, yeah, or family dynamic.

It's like a lot of their problems. That I feel a lot of pressure with that. I, like, how do you raise? High achieving, kind people that are well rounded,

Shante: That's, being kind, being well adjusted, like that. Also, Jane, I think you nailed it with you also like, to me, one of the things was, you could do quote, everything quote unquote and things still don't work out.

There's just, not that's like the main reason I don't want to have kids, but just thinking about all of this, and I do like certainty, I do like predictability with things, [00:10:00] and I was like, that is... Too much. I think that you also, but another point I've been thinking about, there's a little bit of a tangent, but same.

I've been thinking about the mental load of decision making, And how would I do in my business? And I look at what Lex does and just like what people do in their businesses and how that takes a toll. And I was looking at my strength finders thing the other day, my results. And just part of what I do in business is I help people make decisions and I really enjoy it.

And I'm really good at prioritizing things. Don't worry about that. Let's, this is what we're going to focus on, whether it's like purely for a launch and we're talking about the components that matter, or we're trying to organize things as I'm like that do organizing their week. And I'm like, you're losing so much time.

You're task reaching. Like we need to get this tightened up, but the mental load that goes in the mental energy that is used by making and making decisions. is just, for me, tremendous. So I, if something, if I'm working on something, and then someone asks me a question that's something else, I actually get frustrated by it because I'm like, I don't have the mental bandwidth to make a decision about that.

Like that. I'll deal with that on Wednesday [00:11:00] because that's Wednesday's task. But when you think about that as a parent, I'm like, you have to do it all the time. And I'm not sure if people like give themselves the grace with that and they're trying to run a business and all this stuff. And I'm like, of course you're tired and you can't, you don't know what to post and you don't know how to, what to do for this.

Cause like you literally made decisions for yourself and these other living beings all Day like that is just so much. Yeah,

Danny: it is. I am very similar to you where I'm good with one thing at a time. As soon as I try to multitask or whatever, like if I or sometimes like in passing, Ashley may say something to me like, Oh, Hey, don't forget about this.

I either immediately have to do it. Or I have to write it down with like many reminders. Otherwise, it's literally, it's like my brain is just not wired correctly or something. It's I have to, I can't just compartmentalize that thing. And she, and I'm, I don't know how she does it. She's way better at that than me.

She's, [00:12:00] she must, I don't know, like her computer is like running. It's amazing. It's just so crazy. And although I do think it's exhausting to have that sort of like constant level, like I think she stresses about things a lot more than I do and. If you I believe that somebody needs to, maybe you can share that, but there's usually one person that's a little bit more stressed about something like, I'll focus on other things.

She doesn't really care about, but when it comes to like family stuff, she carries a lot of that sort of like bandwidth, that burden with her. So I get, I mean like decision fatigue is a real thing and especially for what you're doing. At a high level, like the ability to function at a high level, and we were talking about my friend that sells wine and like how I went over to his house and I got like really drunk for the first time in a long time and I felt terrible the next day and I was so inefficient.

Whoop, thought you were dead. But I like, yeah, exactly. I was dying. But I like prioritized. Efficiency because I value it so much. And I can think for you, same thing. So like you take all these other things out of your life, then all of a sudden you have a [00:13:00] lot more clarity and you have a lot less decisions to make, and that means that you probably make better decisions overall with the things that are important to you.

Shante: Absolutely. So it's the trade off of you use energy to prioritize the thing, then I do think that priority is singular. I think that's probably people struggle with that because they try to have priorities and then they're like, but this, and I'm like, then nothing gets done.

So it needs to be this and there is that ability to compartmentalize in that like I, like you said I will not even worry about that thing. Like I'll write it down. I definitely circle it. If it's not on the calendar, it probably won't happen. So like I have to put it on there, but I will not worry about those slides for Wednesday's Frickin presentation until Tuesday night or Wednesday morning, depending on what the topic is.

Cause I'm like, Oh, it's fine either way. I cannot have this like constant level of Oh, what about that? Then what about that? And I watch people do that and watch it take a toll on them. And they're just always stressed out and they're always feeling like they haven't accomplished anything because their list of things to do is 50, 000 things long.

There's no order. And they're like, but I did this thing and I did this and like front of that email. And then I went and did this thing and then tried to post, but it took too long. And I'm like. Let's tighten [00:14:00] it up. Let's tighten it

Danny: up. Let's talk about that for a second. I think this is a real problem for anybody that is understanding how to manage their week and some of this has to do with how you prioritize things, but also I think a lot of it is saying no to things that most people in our profession are so bad at because we're, we are.

Helpers of other people, right? And for us to turn somebody down like that's we feel bad about that, right? We're like, oh, I'm, sorry like I know I need to do

Shante: I think That is I love that you're saying that because I think that's one of the things that helped me succeed because i'm not Inherently that I like to solve problems.

I like to figure out things but I am not someone that's like I want to help you Like I will help But also like my way of helping, maybe go see that person over there. I'm not, I don't need to take it on myself and feel that sense of accomplishment. I think that's very important for people to identify if they are like that, which I think like you're saying is like a good, really good number of people in our profession, which is also probably why I stopped treating.

Cause I was like, I actually don't like this. I like figuring out the problem of assessment, but like now go do it and help yourself. [00:15:00] If you are like that, you get

Danny: exhausted quickly with people. Cause I think that there's this sort of highly empathic person that in the clinic is totally like they're awesome and there's people crying in their office every other day and like they just help people get over all these like mental barriers that they don't think they're able to ever do again You know, they're great active listeners they tend to be just great clinicians overall and they're the ones that are you know, there's it's like It's the art that they want to be amazing at is their profession.

And then, yeah, then there's other people that I find, maybe this is more like yourself. They're more like systems driven. They like to they're more like a puzzle, solvers and finders and and they figure out templates and things that work for them and they're very efficient.

But they tend to be, those people tend to actually. Really do well with like research within the profession. Yeah, totally. Things like that, other side of it. So you would, so why aren't you doing research?

Shante: What's up with that? Oh, no, because I'm definitely not. I'm definitely, I think of Eve as you said that I'm like, oh, systems, like I'm not that person.

I have the skillset to. Like very much see [00:16:00] people and pull out the best in people and put the best ideas of people and I'm like a huge activator I can get you started. I can get you going on things, but that's as much as like I enjoy. I don't love babysitting. I don't love the like I have to keep you on task with this.

So I'll do it with the business coaching I do. I will do that, but it's a certain type of person. And we were going to talk about, online side of things. One of the beautiful parts about having an online business is that there's so many touch points before someone comes in and sees you.

And before you work with somebody, so you can really, cultivate a certain type of client and really just attract a certain type of client. And that person that is, that maybe needs the That needs the guidance, that needs the little reminders, but not the person that needs you every time to get started.

Because that's not the person that I'm looking to work with. It's the person that's Hey, I need strategy on this. Hey I am super scattered. I'm an ideator and I want to do that, that, that. I need someone that's going to rein me in and be like, just do this. Which we know as physical therapists, it's also what we were doing, where you have runners and they're like, So can I run 50 miles today?

And you're like, Let's pump the brakes just a little bit with that, the same skill set there. So [00:17:00] I'm definitely not the let's put everything in systems. Like I would lean more towards that first person that you said, which is also why I stopped reading. Cause as soon as I went into pelvic floor physical therapy, which I did for probably three years, that is when you really start feeling a lot of that emotional load because of the people are coming in.

It is different. No matter what people said, yes, it can be ortho, but it's very different than someone that's coming in with. Traditional, very standard knee pain. Someone's my marriage is ending because of this thing, or I can't work, I can't live my life. You're like, wow, this is a lot.

So that was also what separated me, and rather made me want to take a step back from that. But I think identifying how you are and where you fall on that's what leads to ultimately career happiness and career longevity. So you can find the position, create the position, move into the position that, that really fits

Danny: how you are.

What do you say to let's say there's a clinician listening to this and they're like, I don't know if I want to treat patients anymore, and there's a large nonclinical, sort of movement, not just physical [00:18:00] therapy, but I think in many of the healthcare, profession different disciplines.

And I. I think it's hard from what I've seen, at least for me, because I do really enjoy working with patients. It's hard for me to be like, Oh, you went to, think about all the school you went to and you took all these loans and you do awesome work with people. Like you really get to help people quite a bit.

The only problem is that economy doesn't value what we do in the same way. I'll give you a great example. I had lunch, I caught up with an old patient of mine. We had lunch and this guy sells he sells trailers for 18 wheelers. So like the big trailers in the back of a semi truck and.

I was like, how's it going? He's awesome, man. It's career year, last year, like the guy literally made like a half million dollars is in sales selling trailers. And I was like, wait a second. I go, cause when he came to see me, I was like, he couldn't do shit. He hurt his back. He played football in college.

He hurt his back. He's couldn't do anything. Couldn't pick his kid up. I was like, just a second. You're telling [00:19:00] me you selling trailers is worth that to the world. Me helping you alleviate debilitating lower back pain so you can pick your child up is worth quite a bit less than that per year.

And he started laughing out loud. He's yeah, I don't make the rules. That's just what it is. Yeah. I just, I see that. And it's it is, it's almost as if you need to feel. Another reason to want to be in the profession, strongly besides income, which is, it is what it is. But let's say somebody is feeling that and they're just like, I just, I'm not into treating patients anymore.

I'm not what's your advice to them? Because I feel like you don't want to stay in something that you don't really love doing either. I

Shante: think the first thing is like giving them permission okay, cool, you don't have to do it, but I think what's really important is asking them why, because I think you can also buy, I don't, I'm going to say buy time, but that kind of implies that they're buying time to do something else, but it's also just buying time until they figure out that it's, so it's not a rash decision of I hate this and I have to just, okay.

completely walk away. I think that, I'll die on the hill that physical therapy is the best first career of any [00:20:00] first career, whether you stay in it or you go somewhere else. Like the skills that you learn are amazing. And, I hurt, what did I hurt? My knee. I think I hurt my knee last October playing beach volleyball.

And someone was like, are you going to the doctor? And I was like, I am the doctor. No, I am the doctor. I know what's going on. Are you going to the doctor? Yes. Cause I went home and I know what to do with this thing. Like it's the best first career. It's the best skill set that you could have. You always, you have job security, whether you're working in hospital, you work for that, whatever.

It's the best. But for that person, I would ask. What don't you like? Because maybe it's the setting. Maybe it's your boss. Maybe it's your patients. Maybe it is that you don't want to do this anymore. But I think it's real. I think humans are really not so good at identifying the cause of their feelings.

They're just like, I feel this way, which I'm like, yes, cool. It's validated. And then why is it because it's too many people? Is it the wrong type of client? I had a business call. It was coaching call the other And she is in person and Is looking to grow that kind of the online side of [00:21:00] it, not a hybrid model of a continuation and doing remote programming.

She actually wants to be in the online space, which she's I know it's going to take forever. I'm doing it in the background. It's fine. Like, all right, cool. She was basically came on the call and was thinking like, I think I need to switch my niche and go in this different direction online and I was like, if you want, but also, that's starting from square one to do that.

So I don't think that's a good idea. But why do you feel this way? And ultimately it came down to Danny was that she is not good at confrontation. She avoids confrontational situations and because of that she just runs away from things. And so the issue is that she hasn't had the hard conversations with Clients and clients she doesn't like.

So her schedule isn't good and because her schedule isn't good. She doesn't want to go into work. She's like sleeping in and that's the time she would otherwise be using to be creative to create social media content. So I was like, you don't need to change your content. It's actually very good. You need to be able to handle confrontational situations.

Because imagine if you got to work with people that you liked. And clients that you liked, you would be fine. So I think that people really need to sit and be like, what is it that I don't like? Is [00:22:00] it my boss? Is it the type of clients? Is it the duration of the sessions? Is it what I'm treating? Is it that I feel like I'm not learning?

Identify those things and then fix those things, address those things. And then if at some point you're just like, this really isn't what I want to do. Cool. And you take that skillset and you look to apply it. In another, because it's not like it's, to me, it's not sunk cost because you have so many skills that you've gained and usually so many connections you've made that cool, you take that and then you can start to shift in another direction.

Danny: Yeah. That's a great point. I, cause I, I think that when someone dislikes where they're working, the people that they're around, the population that they're seeing, and I've been there right where I remember when I. So when I get moved from a tropical Island, to Columbus, Georgia in August.

It's a tough, that's a tough switch. It's a tough transition. That's a really bad exchange of location. But the other big thing for me from a career standpoint, I went from having a lot of autonomy being out of being at a [00:23:00] brigade where no one actually really even knew what I did. So it's almost like I had.

I was like an entrepreneur, right? I got to do the stuff that I wanted. I had certain metrics that they would track and as long as they were good, they didn't really care because they didn't really know, they didn't know what to tell me. They're like, I don't know what you do. Just make sure you look, make me look good and we're fine.

So that's what I did. And I was like, this is awesome. I have all this autonomy, a lot of freedom of what I could do, be creative and try new things or whatever. And And then going to Columbus and being attached to the the clinic where the airborne school was, I had all these sick call patients.

It's a lot of ankle sprains, knee, knee pain from a lot of slow running jumping off of, towers to practice and stuff like that. And it was just a lot of triage of these simple injuries. And it was a lot of what I was doing. As well as a lot of the cadre or the instructors, it was documentation for disability purposes, which is just tedious.

It's just like goniometer on measuring stuff to just, and a lot of it's just for, yeah. And it's because of their ratings that they would get outside. It's like the right thing to do for them, but it's very boring [00:24:00] and and it's just, if I had to stay in that environment, I would probably not be a clinician either.

But what we see with this transition, we help a lot of people with, and the reason I think a lot of people are moving in the direction of even if it's just their own solo practice, at least they get to define and say Hey, this is who I want to crush it with. This is who I'm going to go find to work with.

And they get a lot of energy from working with the right people. Not everybody's going to be ideal, but At least you get to define that. And it's not, dictated to you and just put on your schedule.

Shante: This, I think back, like I, I treated it for eight years or so when I talk to people, it's not like I did it for eight months and I was like, get out of here.

Like I did it, I was in it and I, there were times that I did love it. And yeah, you can. The fulfillment that you get of working with people and changing their lives, for sure, that was awesome. But the people that you're working with and feeling that you have a say, and that was a big thing in me going and doing a cash based thing and doing this on my own because I was like, the worst feeling ever is when you ask someone why they're here and they're like, because my wife told me I had to be here or because even worse, because the doctor said I have to come here if I want to go get surgery.

And you're like, so you don't want to be here. I [00:25:00] don't want you to be here. You're not going to do anything. This is a waste of my time. That's the worst feeling. So the ability to work with someone who's, it all doesn't even necessarily matter the condition. That's like a icing on the cake, but that wants to be there.

That is motivated. That believes in this, that actually wants to get better. Like Danny, I got a question for you. Do you, same vein, do you think based on what you've seen, because I saw it in CrossFit space where people are like, I like CrossFit, I'm going to start a gym, I'm going to open a CrossFit box.

And then they're like, wait, I have to run a business. This is not fun anymore. I don't do CrossFit anymore. What have you seen in terms of people that start their own businesses? You think that the majority of people actually want to have their own businesses or they more so people want to work in an environment that you've described?

Danny: I don't think that most people even know what. What it is like to run a business. I think that there's, I have actually seen this a lot in the CrossFit space just because, I, back when I taught for them, I would see this a ton and. There's a big difference between somebody that runs a business and somebody that opens a gym just because [00:26:00] they like CrossFit and they would make it very easy to do it, right?

Because you need a weekend certification and then you need, you basically need like an industrial shell of a building and not even that much equipment, maybe 15 of equipment back in the day. Yeah, you could, it just depends if you just had like barbells and some bumper plates and kettlebells and a pull up bar, like you pretty much, you can fill the other stuff in after that.

No, I would see a lot of people that I think would. They would look at it more as like a hobby, but you can't run a business like a hobby and it actually be effective. I'll actually give you a great example of a specifically a gym. There's a gym down the road from us. And we first moved here.

I don't go to this gym and my father in law just started going a few months ago. And when Ashley and I moved here, we started going to this gym. Immediately is right down the street from where we were at. And the backstory is the lady that owned it, it was her and her husband, but her husband comes from.

A very wealthy family, like probably one of the hundred wealthiest families in the U S and he's just, he's like the only, [00:27:00] yeah. So he's I think the only son or only kid maybe. So he's got like trust fund level money. He just buys these two gyms for his wife. His wife's kind of into it.

Like she just likes CrossFit. And he wanted to buy her CrossFit gym. So he buys these in cash, right? The guy that sells them he's this Army captain had gotten out, started these gyms. He's he takes the cash and moves to police. I don't know if he ever came back. So she has these now it's her hobby.

So she just thinks I can just hire these coaches to do whatever. So it was the worst run gym I've ever been to in my entire life. There was this guy that would teach the morning classes and there wouldn't be a ton of people there. There'd be maybe like three to five. And half the time he would be asleep on the couch in like the office area.

And he would like sleep through class. So we just be like dropping barbells to wake him up, like to get him up. Yeah. Half time I would just do my own thing and then leave. And this is and she didn't care because she didn't need the money. She just, it just was a, it was like a hobby for her.

The guy that bought it. He has a management consulting background, worked for like Deloitte. He bought [00:28:00] this gym and it runs it's smooth. This could be a business, great business. I talked to him about it. He's oh, dude, it was a train wreck. He implemented all these systems, all this stuff.

He didn't, he liked CrossFit, but he didn't like being a consultant and didn't like all the traveling that he had. So for him, this was a business that he was buying because it was going to be what provided an income for him and his family. So he took it very seriously, took a very different approach to it.

And what I see, and this is what most clinicians do is. They say to themselves, okay I don't want to do this anymore. I've heard Danny, I've heard Shantae talk about stuff. I've read some books. I listened to some podcasts and whatever. I watch some YouTube videos on stuff I'm going to go for.

Cause it actually doesn't look like it's that hard. It's really not that hard to start a practice, but the problem is that it is still a business and. They have no idea how to actually effectively run a business. So if you really think about like the seven years we spent to get a degree, plus all the mentorship that we've had, all the continuation courses that we've gone to, to increase our skills, like that level of effort towards the profession.[00:29:00]

Has got to be applied to your business because if it's not, you're going to be like it's almost like you have this lopsided approach to your skills where you have no business skills and you have these great clinical skills and that will actually get you patients because they'll tell their friends about it and stuff like that.

But the moment that you start to slip up because you're not organized, you forget to email somebody something, you forget to follow up, whatever. Like your reputation starts to go downhill because yeah, you may be a great clinician, but your customer experience sucks and then you're going to plateau.

You're going to be stuck. So for a lot of people that we see, it's like they have to come to that conclusion the hard way usually, because I can say this and no one, very few people will listen initially because they don't really know the pain of it. And it's the same thing with us.

Like people can talk about how difficult it is to be a clinician and see 30 people in a day until you fucking do it. Like you don't know what we're talking about. And I know plenty of people that went to school and now in our profession, this is what's interesting. There's people that do something similar to me within our profession that are helping people with business coaching and with cash based practice and stuff that are physical therapists that have never treated a goddamn [00:30:00] patient.

Never treated one. And it's because they realize they didn't want to do it. Seeing online spaces blows my

Shante: mind. Yeah, it's crazy. Flows my mind. I feel like from the consumer perspective, they're not the physical therapy client, but I'm a person that's paying this business coach. The number one question is, have you done what I want to do?

Across the board, and I feel the same way about sports. And I know that kind of people will be like sometimes people are better coaches and they are players. And I'm like, I don't fucking care if I'm hiring someone. I want someone that's been at that level that's done it out.

There's a lot of coaches out there. I don't need someone who's like just great at, theory and I want to know, were you in the trenches in the same capacity? Do you understand it? Or did you realize that there's more money to be made or easier money to make going B to B than going, B to C direct to consumer?

Because that is a huge red flag. We see it a ton in the online business space a ton because it's easy to do that. I'm like, ah, this is not

Danny: good. I think it's even more rampant in the the online space because for a lot of people, I read this article about I was looking at different softwares that some of our folks are [00:31:00] using.

And one of those is go high level. And as I was reading more and more about it on some of these, I was getting some of these Reddit threads where people are basically describing their business model of this. So they're like, okay. I get this go high level account, which is basically a marketing software, right?

We can build landing pages and all kinds of stuff. And what they do is they essentially build systems in many cases with limited understanding of the business they're building for, but they're pretty slick marketers. So they'll build these systems out. And then under this account, they can license a sub account through their accounts.

To somebody else and they can drop all these systems into them, which it sounds, that sounds appealing in some way. And then what they do is they just charge them the same amount that they would be paying a go high level for the same account access, but they have to build everything out themselves. So on paper, you're like, this is an easy thing to sell.

The problem is if you're that business owner, you can never leave. Because, and if you do leave, they just take all their, they take all of their account back. And so you don't, you're not actually own it. And then people don't even realize that. And I'm like, this is [00:32:00] wild. And it's a scam

Shante: in a lot of ways.

I see it over and over again. And I will say it, if you're, it's very easy to say this to an online business owner because they're online. So I'm like, listen, you have to learn. Tech. I don't care if you don't like it. This is your job now. You have to learn it. And at some point if you want to outsource it, you can.

It becomes a little harder to say that to brick and mortar people that are like that. That's learn the systems, learn the tech side of it. I understand it's not fun. I understand that it's not like you don't feel like it's directly like bringing cash in for this, but you need to learn these things so you're not handcuffed.

To whatever this thing is. I see it happening a ton now in the space where people are going into these masterminds and these programs and they're just literally outsourcing everything to the point where they're like going to outsource the copy on their website and the copy in the emails and I'm like, you can't do that.

It's easier. I feel like it's easier for me to tell my people they still want to do it, but I'm like, you have to run your business first. You have to find your voice. You have to build this brand. And then if you want to hire people and bring them in. I don't care. That's amazing. [00:33:00] Great. But people are trying to do it from the beginning.

This!

Danny: lIsten, I get it like getting let's say you want somebody to build a landing page for you or build out a funnel of emails that are, let's say it's like a new patient email funnel or something the understanding is that they need to actually have done what you're trying to do and they understand it.

You also have your own voice, your own verbiage, your own niche that needs to be applied to that. The frameworks can be similar, but they need to be filled in with actual like substance that makes sense to your community. And then the other thing is make sure that it's your resource.

That's like the other thing for me that I see is just don't build. You're going to build the digital infrastructure of your business? Make sure you own it. I'm not going to build, a building that I don't own. And if I decide I want to vacate it, they take it back. It's just a bad idea.

It makes no sense to

Shante: me, Danny. It makes no sense. I think that there is, if people have the grit, the determination to run a business, to acquire, acquisition is the hardest, right? Getting people in the door. If you can figure that out, you can take the weekend to [00:34:00] figure out your CRM. You can take the weekend to figure out, I don't need you to become a pro that someone's gonna hire you, but like people are so overwhelmed by the thought of a website that they're immediately like, I'm just gonna hire the whole thing out.

I'm not saying that I need you to sit here and slave away for three weeks to try and fucking figure out how to do it, but you do need to put something into this because that's how you're gonna future proof this, understand this a little bit. What's going on? You get, it's it feels like the first I feel like the first drop of technical resistance, people are like, Oh, I'm outsourcing everything.

And I think that there's a lot of, I think there's a lot of bad messaging on social media. It's good marketing for these marketers to just really twist the knife in the pain point and be like, you don't have a real business if you haven't outsourced it and you're, you're trading dollars for hours and this tech stuff isn't bringing people in.

So just hire it out immediately. Yes. And learn how to do things, understand how to do things, make sure that it's your own. And then you can be like, all right, I'm going to, I'm bringing someone in to help me with this. I just, I see it happen so much where people are [00:35:00] so like, I just wanted to have nothing to do with it and be so hands off.

And I'm like, this is an integral part of your baby. So take the time, push through that friction. You will be okay. I promise. And then you can, outsource accordingly. It's happening like a lot, Danny. I feel like

Danny: you need to be an informed consumer and it's no different than any other decision that you make.

You have to have a, you have to have an understanding of what you want, but also what you don't want and what you need to make sure that you're not, getting taken advantage of because people do that. It is what it is. It's going to happen in anywhere that there's an opportunity that to, to create income.

I will say I'll circle back around to what you said about the trading time for money. I had this conversation with people and they get really frustrated with it, where they're like I don't want to trade time for money. I don't want to trade time for money. And, I get like getting to a point where you have this time independence, time freedom.

But that shit doesn't happen quickly. And I think the patient side, like I, I see this constantly where people are just like, Oh I just don't want to trade my time for money anymore. And it's I trade my time for money. Like I'm technically doing it right now. And [00:36:00] I'm just saying we're going to create content out of this.

You're doing the same thing, right? Like you could be doing something of value of something else. And. But we're doing this instead because we can share it and we can hopefully educate people. And I think that I don't know if people view that as Oh maybe they see you and they say, Oh, all she does is play volleyball.

She plays volleyball and she pets her cat, and, and that's it. So she must not be doing any work. But they're wrong. You can do a shitload of work. You just don't necessarily document all of that, right? And you're not seeing patients all day where you can see, Oh, I'm getting, I'm paying this much per visit or whatever.

But I think that. To understand that that's okay. And that if you want to grow past that, it's a lot of work. A ton of work, whether you go virtual, like what you're doing, like the amount of effort it takes to be able to build a personal brand of enough size to be able to replace your income as a full time physical therapist.

That is hard work, very hard to do. And if you go the other route where you're like, okay, I'm going to start a practice. I'm going to grow myself out of it. Even as an owner where I wasn't seeing any patients. I'm still involved in so [00:37:00] much stuff with the people that we work with in the business itself.

And it's just it's maybe not tied directly to a schedule, but it's still a lot of I'm trading time for something,

Shante: right? You are. I think that people conflate words and confuse words and actually I'm after this, I'm recording episodes for this week. And one of the things I'm going to talk about is time freedom versus time flexibility.

And people think that they're going to get time freedom. And I'm like, You're not, unless you are independently wealthy and you're like a trust fund baby, you're gonna, what you're looking for and what you're ultimately going to get is time flexibility because you still have to work. It's just when are you working and what are you working on?

I think that's the biggest thing that people are like, but I, maybe they don't want, I call it minimized direct delivery where they don't want to be like right with the client or client facing. So you want to change those hours, but guess what? So I'm client facing on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Every other day, and even those days, it's still work that's being done.

Monday, Wednesday, Friday, it's still content creation that's being done. It's still checking in on things. It's still people, one of the questions that gets me, and they're like, How much time do you spend on social media? And I'm like, all the time. I don't, [00:38:00] there's no this is my job. I'm on it all.

I don't know what the kind of question this is. I do it all the time because this is my business and I like doing it and I have that time flexibility where okay, I'm going and traveling or whatever. I'm on the plane. And the Wi Fi is shit, so I'm not on it then, but I'm going to be on it when I land.

Time flexibility, very different than time freedom, it's very, I think that people like to throw around slick phrases and be like, ah, trading dollars for hours and I'm working in the business versus on the business and all these things. And I'm like, what do you actually mean? What do you actually want?

And also, You're still going to have to work like that's just a given, but let's figure out what you want to be working on, who you want to be working with, when you want to be working, how you want to be working, and then lean into that. It's not just I have money and I don't do anything. Also that sounds not like you realistically probably don't want that.

There is some depressing,

Danny: right? I feel like if I didn't have something to do that I was trying to get better at. anD what's nice about a business, I guess you can find this in a lot of [00:39:00] ways, right? Like it could be a hobby, but even still, I feel like there has to, I think we're designed to work.

We're designed to do, we're designed to do something. We're designed to help people ideally, at least I feel like I'm very much wired to help other people. I just couldn't imagine. Selling something that I didn't feel like was benefiting someone directly. And so I need that. And I also know that if I was to not work, I would be a pretty miserable person.

Like I need, it's I, like I get, I have this. I have a dog that's a German Shepherd mix, and he needs a certain amount of work. He needs to, he needs to run after a ball. He needs to do a little training. He needs to go on a walk. He needs direction. And if he doesn't he'll eat a roll of toilet paper.

Like he's you're, and if I didn't have direction, I'd probably not doing that. But I'm like, destructive. Yeah, exactly. It's just like ripping it up and out of frustration. But we need something to do. I think the time flexibility side. Is amazing because if you can tie that in with something that you independently love doing where it doesn't [00:40:00] feel like my barometer is this there's certain things I still have to do that I'll put off and I'll put off and they're so energy draining for me I'm just like oh my god I just can't do it and I'll do lots of other things in the meantime.

But the things I get to do was like, I was so excited to talk to you today. Like I like literally, I just I could barely do anything else. It's funny. I wrote out like all these things I want to talk about. We have an extra touch today, which is awesome because it's so easy to have this conversation, but I think that I'm excited about this. I'll have more energy after this than I will going into it. And it's like this idea of what they call it, like energy fountains and energy drains. This is an energy fountain for me. Like the ability to be able to engage with somebody, learn from somebody, just I love the perspective that other people have.

I find that fascinating. And if you can tie in the things that you do with flexibility that give you more energy than braining activities, like that's the life that, that's,

Shante: that's the key. That, that is, I think, what people are searching for. I think that, yes, we are in, it's expensive to be alive.

It's certain expensive and more city, certain, it's [00:41:00] more expensive in certain cities. In other words, in general, we know it's super, super expensive to be alive. And that is what it is. It is what it is. So you may need to do things to Have money as a resource, right? To me, money is a resource.

It creates opportunities, it creates options. And that's what I'm looking for is I always want options. So yeah, you may need to do certain things that you don't love so that you can have this and you can save and you can then have this time and the time flexibility and doing these other things that, directly necessarily aren't like immediately producing money.

Like my, for me, if I think about it, I love creating content. I would love to just do that all the time, but also I'm like. That doesn't make money directly unless you're like some massive YouTuber. And then that to me also sounds not fun now because suddenly if that's your job, these people are spending like a hundred thousand dollars on a thumbnail to test this against this.

And I'm like, I don't want to do that. I just doing, I like creating this. So that means that I am still going to be coaching and I'm still going to be doing Voxer access with people. And I enjoy that, but do I enjoy making content and having this land of [00:42:00] leveraged model of let me just. Provide information this way.

Do I enjoy that more? Yes. I need to do other things so that I can do this. And I think people have to take a step back and realize that. And then, like you said, realize the time that goes into getting to a point where, yes, I can do things like this. And this actually will help the business in some way, shape, or form.

It's not just I'm pretending that it is because it's something I want to do. I think that people want to, and I will say, I think it probably ties into social media because you, not because social media is bad. I'm the first person to champion it, but. You could, you're privy to a lot more on social media and you're privy to, at this, in the same vein, like half of the story.

And so you come in and you just see Danny's success right now. You don't see the 18 billion years before that. And you're just like, I want that. I could do that. Like, how do I get to that? I don't want to trade dollars for hours anymore. Meanwhile, you like, Graduated yesterday and have no trust and no skills.

So it's

Danny: Hey, sorry to interrupt the podcast, but I have a huge favor to ask of you. If you are a long time listener or a new listener and you're finding value in this podcast, please head over to iTunes or [00:43:00] Spotify or wherever you listen to the podcast and please leave a rating and review. This is actually very helpful for us to get this podcast in front of more clinicians and really help them develop time and financial freedom.

If you would do that, I would greatly appreciate it. Now back to the podcast.

That's not true there. Yeah. That's the thing. I think that it is challenging to see that. And people around you maybe they're, adjacent to you some way, maybe they're a friend, maybe they're some sort of loose acquaintance. Maybe it's just somebody that looks like they're your age that are put, they're putting stuff out about, the things that they're doing and.

And it's so difficult to know. It's like very difficult to compare yourself because it never ends well. Like you're either going to feel better about yourself, which is like, Oh, great asshole. Congrats. Better than that person. Does that make you feel better? Or you feel worse because somebody is like doing something that you wish that you could do.

And it's human nature, I think, to do it, but it is also, it's very challenging. I think that, I think one of the best things people can do is just have more perspective on, it's just the idea of Being able to go after what you want [00:44:00] while still appreciating what you have, which is a very difficult thing to do.

One of the things that we found is just as a family, there's a local nonprofit that works with homeless women that have kids. And so they have a big house in the neighborhood and they do all kinds of different events, right? So but we would go and we'd. Cook dinner for them a couple of times a year.

We're like, we'll go, drop off Thanksgiving baskets for ones that have an apartments that are moved to the next step of the process. But then we also we'll we'll get involved in Christmas with our kids and they come to all of it anyway, but like at Christmas, what's so interesting is they'll have their wishlist of what they want for Christmas.

And it's not I want an Xbox, I want an iPad. It's I want soap and socks. Put that in perspective for a second. Like these kids, these are the same age as mine and they're, that's what they want. And my kids see that and it's Oh shit. Like they're just asking for soap and socks. Can we give them our soap and socks?

I'm like, no, that's gross. We're going to get them. But to them, it's perspective. So I think that for a lot of people, they lose sight of that. They lose sight of the fact that there's a lot of people that struggle, the things that we're talking about, time, flexibility, just trying to, they're just trying to [00:45:00] be grateful for that as well.

And I think that if you don't intentionally do that. It, you're going to end up living in this false reality of, Oh, everybody's doing great, better than me. No, a lot of people are not. Most people are really

Shante: struggling. Most If you have the ability to be thinking about this and having, you have options, that's like you're doing a lot better than most people.

If you have options, that comes down to that. I think like you said, gratitude is like on the other side of the spectrum there, I see folks and I work with folks that it's largely like females and people that are like raised and socialized female that feel so bad about their success. And they're just, yes, this is a big thing, Danny, that they are just like, I feel guilty and how, I didn't want to share it.

I don't want to talk about it. Some people I think self sabotage because of it. And they're just like, because they are aware that there are people that don't, that have it worse than them. And then there's the conversation we have with that, which is like you feeling bad [00:46:00] doesn't make them be in a better position.

So what can you do? And I think that you nailed it. I've done multiple episodes about this cause I see it a lot and it starts with gratitude and expressing gratitude. And from there we tend to see like action items come up, whether it's that like you said, you go and volunteer time or donate your money or whatever it is, or talk to somebody, whatever it is, you get far more of an impact.

You get far more of an effect from starting in one place and expressing gratitude and practicing gratitude as opposed to just being like. I feel bad because people will just they get to that and they just stop and it's a big It's a big issue. I see it a lot actually a lot.

Danny: It's just so interesting I guess that all I guess it's this how would you call it?

Like survivors guilt almost right? Yeah, I'm doing so well and these people around me Are not, I can totally see how that would be the case, and, but I think on this, on the flip side of that, that obviously gratitude is important. I think it's actually like the most important thing to at least just, it doesn't even have to necessarily be with other people.

It could just literally be [00:47:00] appreciating. anYthing I was dragging a sled the other day we live across the street from a school and so I'm around, I'm like dragging around the parking lot like a psycho. Everyone in my neighborhood thinks I'm some fucking nuts dude but so anyway, I'm out there dragging a sled and I just stopped for a second and I was getting, just drinking some some water and.

I just had a moment where I was looking at all the trees around me and I'm like, man, Atlanta has a really pretty, like all different colors and it's a little bit colder in the morning. And I just took a few minutes to like really just appreciate trees, like literally leaves. Around me.

I get it Sky and what it looked like in, in comparison, I it. And it's I like that right there in its own right was just this interesting moment that I had that I was just so thankful for. I was get outta the fucking matrix that we're all in and just look around for a second facts and all of a sudden it's this is amazing.

This is awesome. How fortunate am I to be able to drag Aled dude in a beautiful area? You don't, on a day that I get to spend a lot of time with my family.

Shante: Like it's great that, those little things, there's a large. My whole message, my whole thing with social [00:48:00] media is that I believe that we as humans are here on this planet.

In this life to experience joy, whatever that looks like for some people that is business and being super productive for other people. It's the opposite. It's raising a family, whatever. But I believe that we are here to experience the joy to that end. That is why I share what I share. And I shared unapologetically in terms of my stories of I love where I live.

I love my cat. I love that there's Palm trees outside because those moments are the best and I think that a lot more people have access to that than they will have access to like making a social media post or whatever, but just being able to be like, dude, the sun is out for me, the sun, other people are like they want to, they like to rain or they like the cold.

I don't want the cold, but Yeah. To each their own. And having those moments. I have them all the time now. Like you said, I do a lot of beach volleyball and we'll just be, I don't care if I'm losing. I don't like to lose, but even if I am, I'm like, Oh look, there's a dolphin over there. And taking a moment for that.

And that is why I share what I share because I know that people. feel guilty, or sometimes they [00:49:00] forget, or they don't realize. I think sometimes people think that the thing they celebrate and the thing that they are grateful for has to be this massive thing. And it can just be like, there's a lot of nice flowers out.

There's, autumn in Atlanta is really nice.

Danny: I think you need the duality of the, of the perspective of that as well. So like for you, you grew up in a place that was like pretty cold. The winters were hard. And you're like, no, I'm good. And now you live in Southern California and you have nice weather, like nicer weather for what you want.

Like more often, right? So you can appreciate that. Whereas somebody that's grew up there their whole life they can't like, I remember I met this guy who was a physical therapist. That was, he was a few years older than me. He was in the army. He was born in Hawaii. He lived there his entire life. He had never left.

And he went to university of Hawaii for college. And then he moved to San Antonio to go to physical therapy school at university, like the army bailiff program at Fort Sam Houston, same one that I went to. And I met this guy. Like at a different military base and was talking to him [00:50:00] about it because we had just moved from Hawaii and I was talking about Hawaii and I was like how was it going to San Antonio for you?

And he goes, crazy, man. What a shock. He goes, he wanted to go to the beach and he ends up going down to, I think it was Corpus Christi, which is, Texas Gulf coast. No offense if you're, I don't even know if that's on the beach, somewhere down there around the beach. If you're, if you know what I'm talking about, listen, they're not the nicest beaches in the world.

Let's just be honest. It's maybe the closest proximity to that area, but it's not the nicest. And I remember him telling me, he was like shocked. He's wait a second, this isn't a beach. This isn't like, where's the waves? He was like, why is the sand not white? You know what? Where's the, like, why can I see through the water?

Why is this so murky and gross looking? And I just started laughing and he was like, I just thought all beaches look like this. He goes, I thought that this is there's like beautiful mountains. Outside of this town like this, and he's yeah, I went to El Paso and they said they're mountainous, and it's buzzy.

I was like, yeah, it's [00:51:00] perspective, dude. And now, like, when he goes home, he's just oh my God, this is unbelievable. But he has no idea if he doesn't experience something else, right? So I think that even for people that are struggling with things, this idea of perspective, I saw this recently with my son.

He's been trying to make money. So he's doing all these things. He's trying to get people to, he's just trying to help them out with stuff. They don't want to do. And he just, it's been like one L after another. Hasn't worked. Hasn't worked. Finally, he gets this idea that he's going to help, like he's going to take the trash cans to the street and bring them back up.

And he finally got his first couple of clients signed up on it. And he was. So excited, like he, his he was as red as could be. He was so excited. Like he was he was like, I feel like I just hit a home run. Yeah, dude, that's awesome. But he's also been getting, eating shit, getting turned down and all the other stuff that nobody wanted.

And then finally he got I go, you got product market fit today. You guys, your first sale it's awesome. And it's just so sweet for him. It's way better than if it had happened where the first person said yes. Totally, that perspective

Shante: is there. I think [00:52:00] we can have imagine if, one, yes, perspective is, it gives us a frame of reference.

I think if you get that, it becomes like almost a superpower if you are able to not need it in order to appreciate other things subsequently. I guess it's going to be always be easier to be like, yeah, it feels better when I don't bang my head against the wall. If I just bang my head against the wall, totally.

But imagine if, moving forward, you could be, I think some people do have this skill. It's just like a gift where it's just you can appreciate it. Because not because you need the other side of it. But yes, of course it makes so much, it makes so, so much sense with that. I have a question for you, Danny, with this, because one of the things that I'm just thinking about the story you're telling with Jack and the business idea, because I see it in the online space.

And Jack's also he's so young and he's just coming up with ideas, but a quote that Jill shares with me sometimes is like one of the greatest barriers to more success is some success.[00:53:00] And you're just like, all right, cool. I got to get an attraction. I see this in the online space in terms of people just going with an idea because they get traction because it, and it works.

Do you see that? In the clinical side of things and people kind of building things that maybe they don't really love they don't even enjoy because but they're like, but it works and I'm gonna do it. Do you see that?

Danny: I do. I see that with people. They'll like chase niches in particular, right?

I've actually seen this where. I would say that women's or like pelvic health or whatever the right term is is, it is one of the better niches for cashflow practice, right? Any sort of pelvic floor work is there's not as many providers. It's something that not everybody wants to do or maybe whatever.

And if insurance does take it, they're typically have long wait times to be able to get into a provider. So it's like this unique sweet spot. I don't know if it'll be like that forever, but it's definitely like that right now. So that being said, [00:54:00] we'll see. Providers that have practices and they're just like, I got to get a pelvic floor person in And then but like they don't really understand it.

They don't understand like what that person's doing They can't mentor that person and I see a lot of turnover that occurs in that space in particular And not just that one but other niches. Yeah, we're It's just Oh, you're doing this. Does this really align with what you want to do? You feel very aligned with this in terms of this meets matches all the other niches that you have.

Is there a reason besides I think I can fill this person's schedule for why you want to add them to your team? Because if that's the only reason you're doing it, I can tell you that person's. Going to not be around too long because they're going to feel that too. And then they're going to move on.

And I see a lot of turnover in positions like that because of the niche that people assume is going to be a great addition, which it can be, but you got to also build the ecosystem for those people to be successful and support them. And if you can't mentor them, you got to get mentors for them. You got to get them around other people that have the same niche.

Otherwise they're going to start to get very frustrated. So I definitely [00:55:00] see that. Or I see people just go into a niche they don't like. Because they think they can make it work, you're like, I don't like working with runners, but there's a lot of hurt runners. So let me work with runners, and, but they don't like running, they don't even fucking like it.

So then they don't want to learn about it. And it's yeah it's very hard for them to actually want to focus on that. It's

Shante: wild to me that you're going to put in the effort to build something and make something like, why would you not choose something that you enjoy? Like I watch people replace.

A shitty boss with himself. They replace clients they don't like with these are my own clients at least. I'm like, but you don't like them. You don't like that. Is it better?

Danny: I don't know. Or they'll, or I'll see people that are like chasing only like affluent clients. So they're like, okay, what's the most affluent zip code I could possibly get in.

I just want to work with people that have a lot of disposal income. They start to try to build these packages around that alone. And and okay. If you're. If you love talking to just affluent people that have disposable income that don't really, it's not that important to them to, to really get a lot out of their business with you, then cool, go for it.[00:56:00]

But if the goal is that you want to help a certain group of people with a certain problem, that's really important to them as well as yourself. That's where I feel like you have to find not just like the fit for you and the environment, but like you and the work that you want to do is we talk about with burnout, right?

It's just like you can make a lot of money and be burnt out. You can do a lot of work and make a lot of money doing the thing that you like to do and you feel great. And so it's just like the matching up of those things, I think for some people it's hard because they don't really know what they want or they don't want.

And then sometimes you get so far along that you're like, I don't know if I can. Stop and rebuild to what I want, because you feel like it's like this sunk cost policy where you've already put a lot of time into it. So I think it's a hard transition to make, but everyone I've seen that has gone that route where they're like, no, I'm going to focus on this.

They, double down on that. They change things up. They're always just so much happier. And typically success is going to follow that. The

Shante: time's going to pass anyway, right? Like it's going to pass regardless. So you might as well start to write the [00:57:00] ships and figure that out. Whether you wait, I see in the online space, whether you wait until you hate it, or you start to turn them gradually, at some point it's going to have to turn because it's not what you're doing, that other path is not sustainable, you're like literally just going to hate it, like you said, you're going to be burnt out, and you're going to be resentful, quality of care goes down it's not, it's There is an endpoint with that.

I got another question, Danny, that just popped into my head. I'm interviewing you now. We're switching. No,

Danny: This is great. This isn't really, I feel like maybe we could just share this on both of, yeah, I'm thinking about it. Duh, because it's basically yeah, we're just like double host.

I'm

Shante: like, we'll be good. Question is, because I'm seeing this and I'm like, I'm seeing, especially with younger practice owners, younger like cash based physical therapists, they are wanting to go into the online space. And I'm not really certain why. I'm like, what do you think it's, I think people maybe think it's going to be easier or, I don't know, but I think it's a bad move and I typically push people away from it.

Unless they're like [00:58:00] brick and mortar is crushing and they're great and their systems are there and they're like not doing that much and they have the bandwidth for this, but why, what is going on, Dana? Are you seeing this? What is the push? Why are people trying to move into the online space instead of doubling down on their brick and mortar?

What's going on?

Danny: This is a really good question. And actually I have a follow up question for you that I'll save until I answer this because I actually wrote one down that I want to ask you about that in line with this. And so what I think is happening is. People see, and again, I think this is just visibility with people's lives a little bit more.

They see people traveling, they see people that are like posting about things that they're able to do about, about what they want to do potentially with their life as well. And I will say that the appeal of an online business, like a digital business is. The remote flexibility.

So the idea that you can work from anywhere I think is very appealing from coming from someone who can do that. I find it quite frustrating actually, [00:59:00] because it is very hard to turn off. It's very hard to silo that. And so I think there's a lot of, there's definitely pros and there's cons to that as well.

So I think people see that and they want to be a bit more remote location independent. Maybe this is like before they have kids and they want to be able to travel more and experience other parts of the country and not be as tied down. I think part of it is just from an age standpoint, I definitely see a lot of people that are younger want to move.

They want to be in different places. They want to, they value experiences, which I think there's actually a lot of benefit to that viewpoint on life and maybe not as much security wise. So that's what I think is going on. I think the other thing too is. I, it seems like the thought process is that an online business is easier.

Yeah. Or an online business is you can make more money with an online business and you, it maybe in some ways, but definitely not in others. Yeah. And it's depends what you're comparing, but there's business [01:00:00] problems in all of them. There's scale problems in all of them. Even people it's maybe you have fewer people digitally if like we're doing stuff, but it's still, there's still people that we have to work with and we have to manage and systems have to be created.

And in fact, I think it's way harder if you're not in person with people to build culture and really, be able to actually have a business. And it's something that I actually miss the most is just being able to be in person with the right people. It's probably the best part of a brick and mortar business, but I'm not going to tell anybody that it's not the right move for them.

I think that they need to decide. It what business do you want that helps build towards the life that you want, not necessarily just to pick a business that's going to become your life, if it's the wrong decision for you. So here's the one caveat I would say to this, right? I think people have a legitimate decision to make, and this is the question I actually have for you.

And it's, so we've had a number of people that have successful cash practices. And along the way, they've built a personal brand for themselves, sharing what they're talking about. And usually it is. [01:01:00] Personal brands that are building that either clinicians are gravitating towards with more questions, or it's consumers that fit a certain niche that want to engage, to work with these people digitally.

And what I see is this sort of fork in the road, cause I don't think they can do both is do you double down on your brick and mortar? That's already like work. Typically that's already doing well and making a lot more money. And then they have this like adjacent interest. That would be a whole different business model, digital business model, consulting courses, maybe whatever it is they're going to do.

And, but maybe that adds like flexibility to where they can be and they have to decide what to do. So have you seen that, I guess you say, and what's your advice for

Shante: that? Totally. So a few things. One, I think that is the rarest of circumstances. Yeah. Because most people just aren't good at multiple things.

So if that person is actually at a place where like they could do well online, it's just very few people. I, the person I'm thinking of right now who's done it is Nicole Cozine crushing [01:02:00] and has done it. And mind you, it's an, it's a business partner situation. Nicole is fucking just incredible, but that's, she's like a different type of person that's can manage both.

So I think you nailed it, that

Danny: it is her husband's involved too. So you have this. You have additional business partner that is rooted in the businesses. And that it's so that is, I think, key to have somebody else. It's a

Shante: very rare situation that you have something like that. It's like very rare.

And if that's the case, then yeah, you go and you can do that. I love that you said that. It's going to be very hard to crush at both if you're that rare person. All right, cool. I think like you said, you got to decide what you want to, like what you want to be your priority and what is getting the focus and the attention.

And it has to be the type of thing where you have to understand that you can't give full attention. So if you're like, hey, I want to grow this digital side of things, you're either very okay with it going slower, and it's going to go slower because you cannot give full attention to it. And maintain while you are able to maintain this other.

brick and mortar. You need to have the [01:03:00] partnerships in place that someone else is running this thing or you have partners that are doing this thing. Otherwise, it's just not possible. It's not possible to do both very well. And I just think it's honestly very rare to get someone that's, I have a handful of clients.

That are doing that. But the reason they're doing it is because they want to move away from the brick and mortar. It's not that they want both to go for forever. And they're like, I have a five year plan of doing this. You can't see me if you're listening to this folks, but like my hands are moving such that they want going up and one is going down.

I'm

Danny: going to call that live. That. Why do you think people want to move towards that? Obviously these people you're talking about they're working with you, so they want to move towards digital, but what do you feel like the appeal is in, from your vantage points?

Okay, I see more people that want to move towards this remote businesses, digital business. Why do you think that's important? I think it's, I

Shante: think it's twofold. I think it's time flexibility. And the majority of people that I see doing it that I'm really like, I'm like, yes, this is the way for you.

They don't want to leave. Practicing fully. They want to do less of it. And so they can down, so they're all very good business owners. Like I wouldn't work with someone that's like this, [01:04:00] disaster. They understand Hey, I can downsize this. I can rent this smaller space.

I am getting all of my in person clients from word of mouth. I'm not getting them from social media. They understand it's two different demographics there and it allows them to scratch the itch of teaching. So many of us that go into this profession, we like to teach as well, right? Where we're like, we want to talk about pain science with our clients and oftentimes our clients.

maybe don't care. But who does care? Other clinicians or other just learners. So there are some, B to C there that the consumer does want to learn, but oftentimes it's other clinicians. And so now they can move into that and scratch that itch of, hey, I want to help, but I want to help the clinician.

And I see how that could have a trickle down and also help more clients because. These clinicians are not treated, teaching, excuse me, treating in this way. So the number one person I see doing that and that I really support is the clinician that's been in the game for a long time. And they're like, I don't want to step away fully.

I want to cut my hours down to 10 to 15, 10 to 15 hours. I'm pulling the practice back. Everyone's word of mouth. Like I have a wait list for a million years. I've been teaching, I've been doing this a lot. I have this following, I want to lean into it more. And it's [01:05:00] just it makes so much sense to do for the person that's I want to have both empires.

I'm like, That is going to be extremely tough. And then there's the other person that's I just want the time flexibility, I want the time freedom, I want to work remotely. And to that, I feel like brand new, I'm just like, dude, go be a traveling physical therapist then. Go ahead and have it.

I love that your focus is on experiences. I love that. If you're, no matter what you're trying to grow, that thing is going to be the priority then. So if you're trying to build a brick and mortar, you can't be like, I want time flexibility and time freedom. You're growing a thing. You're growing a business.

And if you're going to do the same thing online You're still growing a business. I think the only person that thinks that online business is easier is someone who's never actually run and started a sexual successful business because they don't understand like it's a business either way. It's going to take

Danny: a lot harder.

Shante: I do. I do. It's very hard. I do. The lifeblood of a business is going to be the clients and the customers. It is very hard to get customers online because you can't just go have a zillion touch points with them initially. In person, you [01:06:00] have that ability. I was talking to Sean Pastucci about it and...

What was the phrase that he used? I can't remember the exact phrase, but basically there's so much value in, even if you're working at a clinic, if that person has never come to you before, but they're in the clinic with you, they're seeing somebody else, they've still seen you. It's still a point of contact there.

There's still some sort of familiarity, some trust that's being built there. And so if they have to come onto your schedule, you have a little bit more buy in. Online, it doesn't happen. You cannot just go pound the pavement and get in front of people and build these relationships and show your value, demonstrate value.

It is a lot of playing the lottery and just pulling on the handle. Like I'm trying again, I'm trying again, I'm trying again. So when people are like, I want to go into the online space, but they have a brick and mortar that's like starting to gain some traction, I'm just like, What are you doing?

Double down on this thing that is far more guaranteed that you can have more predictable outcomes from your efforts. That you can really utilize SEO that is, has it, has geography tied into it as opposed to I'm going to go on Instagram. I'm [01:07:00] like, and this is from someone that I championed Instagram.

I teach Instagram, but I'm like, that is not the play. It's not the play.

Danny: It's just, it's tough. It's because you're right. Like acquiring a customer, uh, any sort of new clients on, in the digital space is, it's not just harder because it's harder to reach them. It's harder to build trust. And that is the thing that's.

Everybody is just like on their high alert, right? They're like, who is this? I don't know. It takes a long time. And and there's obviously ways that you can scale and spill are really good at this stuff. And, but it's hard. It's a whole nother skill. It's harder to track. It's hard to fulfill.

It's just like you don't have that in person touch point that allows you to be able to read somebody, to be able to make changes, to be able to do the things that you've already learned how to do, especially if it comes down to treating a patient. Like even if you look at something as that would be pretty adjacent to that and fairly straightforward would be remote programming.

Let's [01:08:00] say you're going to take somebody. That's you're going to have to, wherever they find you online, you do initial assessment or whatever via zoom or whatever testing you're going to do. And you build something out for them like. The level of trust you can build somebody in that platform, like the virtual side with great communication, all that versus somebody coming in, shaking your hand, sitting down and I can just listen to you.

We can, like we can be in the same space. I can hear about the things that are bothering you. I can move, your body around and see how things feel. I could, touch that person and see like what, there's. It's such a different thing to do. And it's the reason why I think if somebody is going to go do their own thing, it's 10 times more likely you're going to be able to make something like a small cash practice work.

Even if that's you're just looking at how do I exchange what I'm making, working somewhere else to what I'm doing for myself and at least have more time flexibility then that's. Way more likely to work, maybe it's not what you want, but it's way easier. Yes, it's still hard, it's still freaking hard and online is just so much harder.

It could take so much effort and you never can [01:09:00] turn it off. Otherwise, you don't exist anymore. That you're

Shante: not relevant. You lost the touch points like. It is not the, it is not the play that I push for people. It is, I do believe that the fastest and most successful way to build an online business is in person.

And you start in person and you build the skills and you take the content that you're basically generating in person by having these people and you share it and then you give it as long as it takes. Like one of the toughest parts about online business is that it takes 30 seconds to learn about what it takes.

10 years to get any kind of traction and people are like, wait a minute, but I like did the things and it's not everyone that plays this game gets to win. Like it's that is just how it is. So when I have the brick and mortar folks that come my way, I am the first to say like, where are we at?

What is, why are you doing this? What makes the most sense? Okay, you want recurring. Revenue? Then change your model. Don't go online. You want to have remote programming? Cool, then do it with the people that came in person that you're graduating. Don't go online and look you already have a captive audience here.

Double down on that. [01:10:00] And then, in the background, you have the bandwidth, all this is good. You want to be building this, presence? Totally. Makes sense. And then you're like, oh, I want to pull back on this. I have a partner that's doing, that's taking over. And I can. Do more of my own stuff.

Cool. Then that makes sense. But otherwise I'm like, this is just, this is a bad business choice. And why are you doing this? Because you think it's easier. Then it's definitely a bad business choice because it's not easier. Even

Danny: the, even the brick and mortar to digital, what makes so much sense about that?

I did that accidentally. Like I literally fell into helping people with, yeah. I think in some ways. I'm very glad that we, obviously have gone the direction that we have, but there's, it's, it wasn't something that was like, Oh I want to talk to people with their business.

It just was, no, I want to, I want a successful practice. And. We just would randomly start talking about it on the first podcast I had with the Doc and Jock podcast. And every time that I would talk about it, I would get a bunch of people that would email me or message me [01:11:00] and ask me questions.

And I just felt bad saying no. I would take time to respond to it and Ashley would be irritated because it'd be sitting on the couch while we're trying to watch a show. I'm like, I'm sorry, I got to respond to this person like they're business struggling. It's fun too, though. Yeah. But it was a it was just like a hobby, right?

It was helping other people. It was working, whatever. And then it started to turn into, the beginnings of what we do today. So I think that, like you look at, okay, here's my business or, and then other clinicians are asking me about this thing. I love the idea of cause we kept our business as a testing business for years.

Like we didn't intentionally try to grow our business because what we use it for was testing all the stuff that we were then sharing people in the mastermind. It was more valuable to me to test stuff at the detriment of my own employees. Like I had staff turnover because if you can imagine working for a place that was just like, we're testing this now, they're like, listen, I didn't sign up for this.

This is a difficult place to work. And, and partially was one of the reasons why we sold it too. Cause we're like, it deserves better than this. It deserves somebody that's going to take this and they're going to, they're going to run with it and grow our [01:12:00] people can have more opportunities. But I do wonder sometimes they're like, I don't own a cash practice anymore.

We sold it. We were able to actually build a business to a place where we could sell it, which we're very proud of. We work with hundreds, but like sometimes for me, I feel like that I, at this point now, I feel like that, that professor that, doesn't actually treat patients and they're telling you about the updated research.

And I'm always just so careful about not getting to the point where, I don't have my finger on the pulse of what's going on because I'm not in the clinic anymore. I'm not running a business that business day to day. Even though there's plenty of things that we see helping all these businesses every single day.

But I think being able to have that clinic share what's working is a great, that's a great compliment. And maybe they get to a point where they just go straight into teaching, but I was very cautious about that. It probably took longer to sell our practice than I should have because I just wanted to be able to have I don't know if it's like the street cred of it or just the thing relevant though. I don't know. Yeah. I think

Shante: that's so important. I, that's actually why I left rock tape was because I was like, I am not treating anymore. I have really stepped [01:13:00] back and I stayed with treating so that I exactly for the same reason that you say it and you didn't sell your practice.

I was like, I gotta make sure that this is not just theory. Like when I actually use this tool in this way, cause I don't know if that's actually what I would do. Yeah. And then, step back and I'm like, I can't teach anymore. So I was, the company sold, I was ready to be done, but that was a part of it of I don't know if I have My finger on the pulse.

Do you think that you're, are you concerned that you'll hit a time where you're like, I want to have a practice again to

Danny: I don't know, I feel like if I started another practice I would do it differently. I would, it's just, we're a different place, right? Like we could.

I would probably build something that looks more like like a training center, but it's really more geared towards, helping people move better. And as the segue into that is really the treatment side of that with people and then getting them into more like small group stuff. I think that's a really great way to have accountability.

We do, and we do this with our people, like with their businesses, we have accountability groups and we have coaches that are leading that and they have deliverables that [01:14:00] to show up every month with and. You have this data for your business and you want to show what's going on.

You want to show that you did what you say you're going to do. And you have these people that you respect as well as a coach that can help. And so it's works really well and I, in fitness and health in general, like I think it works really well also just what I was telling you, I'm like, training my neighbor.

Yeah. And I've really enjoyed that because. I'm going to be there anyway. He doesn't know anything about this stuff. I get like little things that I can teach him really help his life in a significant way. And I do see a lot of value in being able to help that. I also see a lot of value in being able to do that for free and not having to charge anybody for anything.

So So for me, it's like fun. So I don't know, I don't know if we do that or not, because I also, I'm very cognizant. I don't want to compete with people that we help. I just don't feel like that's fair. I don't think that I don't want to step on anybody's toes or whatever. But but I do wonder sometimes though, about just not having our finger on the pulse of that, of the business, directly, but there's no way I can do it.

There's no [01:15:00] way that I could actually run a practice and do the things that we're doing now. And the trade off for me is. This, the ability to affect so many more people, even, I don't even look at it from the business owner side. Like for me, I would say like the biggest thing was just like, how many people can we help?

It's with Kelly stretch group, like teaching, it's the thing that I really gravitate towards. It's Oh man, I get to show, I get to, I get 50 people today that are going to learn how to take care of themselves. And then at the end of the, the end of the day, it's always just Hey, here's the deal.

Your goal is to talk to somebody in your life. And teach them some of this, right? So it's like, what do you call that? The like a ripple effect, passing it forward. Yeah. The ripple effect, right? So it's okay okay, now we've got a hundred people. If everybody's just with one person we take these business owners and all of a sudden you don't know shit about running a business, but you're a great clinician.

So let's help you on that side. And in the last 12 months, I think we've had 65, 000 new patients that have come through the businesses that we've helped. That's incredible. That's that's a football stadium. Isn't that crazy? Incredible. That's in a year. And and that's it's still a tiny [01:16:00] amount, right?

So we obviously are making a bigger impact and I think that's amazing. That's the most important thing for me. And the trade off of the being more selfish with wanting a brick and mortar business and still want to treat patients, like I would still do all that stuff. But in, I think overall it feels selfish in a lot of ways versus what we can help people with our goals.

So anyway, that's the way I look at it. It's what's the impact, which one has the best leverage to it in a way. Where do you

Shante: think we are with like the cash based revolution renaissance? Have we peaked? We're still climbing?

Danny: No. There's more every day. That's the thing. It's sometimes I wonder how many we can have effectively, but I think what's going to happen and I had I get people that argue with me about this a lot where they're slow.

We can't have this many private practices and it's. I don't agree with that. I think that we can have a lot more than we have now, mainly because if anything, we're going to see big groups that are consolidated, that many of them are private equity owner, they've sold to hospitals.

And then, they're getting these [01:17:00] crazy reimbursement contracts. That we can't touch, like it's impossible. Even I feel what I feel really who I feel bad for is the in network provider. That's small. If you're a small in network provider, you're basically, it's like death by a thousand paper cuts.

And we have helped a lot of these in network providers that are, there's no other choice. It's you need to understand how to add cash services to your practice. You're going out of business, you're seeing more and more people, you're making less money and you're working harder, and so I think what will happen is more and more of these small practices are going to focus on different niches.

They're going to be very specific to those and they're probably going to take market share more so from big orthopedic practices where people are going to go that don't really know where they should go anywhere else. But the bigger issue and the thing that I see is if I had to guess. I would say maybe 10 percent of the population even knows what we do if we're lucky.

So that means there's 90 percent of the population, whatever that is, 300 million people. They have no idea what we do. They have no, and they don't even know they have a problem. They don't know they have a problem that we can even help them with. So if we really look at [01:18:00] it in terms of. Have we saturated a market?

I think it's a massive market that is undereducated on what we can actually help them with. And if we can even get another 10 percent to understand what we do and that they have a problem that we can help them with, we just doubled the size of the industry, right? We just went from 45 billion to 90, in a in one, 10% increase in the population knowing that we can actually help them.

So I think there's a lot of room for that. My hope is as more and more people move into their own businesses, they're obviously going to want to be advocates for themselves and for what they do. And that just adds advocacy to our entire profession. The right. And I think the right people, because there's a lot of trash providers in our profession.

Like they're probably not listening to this. If you're listening to this, you're probably not a trash professor, but there's a lot of bad. Like embarrassingly bad physical therapist or whatever your clinician, background is, you can be athletic trainer, massage therapist, chiropractor. You get embarrassing people in all of them, but the good people, the people that are like, [01:19:00] we call them human body consultants.

It's like you're helping somebody understand how to take care of their sleep their, nutrition, their movement, their stress management. And maybe you're not like the subject matter expert for all of those, people who are, but you can give them the baseline information to start making these changes.

And then they get this positive reinforcement of, Whoa, I feel better. Whoa, I can keep up with my kids or whoa, look at this. I can do things I haven't been able to do for a while. I see my blood panels looking better now. It's just now I got you. Like I got you now and now we get to go deeper and deeper and really move towards whatever their goals are.

Cause the truth is we're all going to be living longer. Like maybe right now that's not the case. Our life expectancy is actually declining. Went down. Yeah. Yeah. Which sucks. But if you look at a lot of the healthcare technology and some of the things that are happening with AI and some of these proactive screenings that they're even seeing, like MRIs, they can see if you have cancer for right now, the 2, 500 bucks to get one of these MRIs, like within 10 years, that's going to be way cheaper, way better.

And now we're going to catch things [01:20:00] earlier. People are going to live longer. People are going to live longer and it's do you want to just live longer and die the whole time? And no not actually enjoy it. Or do you want to, do you want to live longer and get

Shante: as much out of your time as possible?

You're either dying longer or living longer. What do you want? You have two choices there. I don't know. What do you think?

Danny: How do you view, okay, so like you see it from a business side at this point, but I know. You have a strong understanding of movement, by the way, top two greatest clinical instructors I've ever had, Kelly Starrett and you no doubt, one of the best, it's just, it is a travesty that you no longer teach clinical education, it's great.

But what do you see in terms of like those people that are there were like movement based providers that are really educating people effectively, like, where do you feel like the biggest? Change that they can help with because it's obviously there's a lot of low hanging fruit There's a lot of

Shante: problems I think exactly what you said and tying to what you do and the impact that you can have and if you bring It back to the beginning episode where these clinicians just need to be able to [01:21:00] stay in the game long enough Yeah.

To be able to advocate for the profession. And so having a cash based, working for it, working in a place where they feel valued, whatever that is, it's probably going to be a cash based place, but working in a place where they feel valued, where they enjoy it, where they enjoy the demographic. So they can actually stay in the game long enough to advocate because it's, you just nailed it.

Like people are not problem aware. They're not solution aware either. I think there's some are problem aware, but. Although sometimes I'm like, do you realize how bad you feel? Maybe you don't realize how bad you feel. I don't know, but they're definitely not solution aware, like from the business side of things.

And PTs are not doing a great job with advocating for the profession because they don't have the time. They're like, if you're in the nutritional model, you're seeing a billion people, like you don't have the ability to do that. Nor do you necessarily have the ability to get the results for people that, Kathy Sierra calls it word of obvious, where someone is so changed by something that their friends are like, what have you been doing?

Whoa, it's not that person is saying, I've been doing this thing. It's their friends are asking them, you are just like, you're happy. It looks strong or whatever it is. [01:22:00] People, if people can't get those kinds of results, then that marketing doesn't happen either. So I think you've nailed it that if we can create these facilities and.

These opportunities where we have these clinicians that are excited about it, that are passionate about it, that are really good at it, then yeah, we can start making people more solution aware. And I think that COVID was helpful for this because people started realizing like, yo, the traditional model sucks.

And actually the stuff I've been told is wrong. I feel bad. I want to, I don't want this. I don't want to be a victim to things. I think it was actually very helpful.

Danny: I agree. I saw with my neighbors, like I, I've seen it now with. People, not just, tons of people that are at least were very much more health aware, right?

If you look at, if you look at legitimately The indicators of whether you're gonna really struggle with, getting COVID and being able to be bounced back from that. A lot of it depended on where your health was to begin with. Go fucking figure. You're [01:23:00] healthier.

You're, and it's not to say there's not outliers cause there are like, my aunt was a very healthy person. Like she ended up in the hospital. She almost died. She was on, oxygen for weeks and she still isn't right. And she's a, I would say generally healthy person that was in her 60s.

And it just like really was very hard on her body. And, but if you look at, take that out as an outlier, it's okay, yeah, if you're, listen man, if you literally have every metabolic issue possible, and you get anything you're gonna have, your body's gonna have a hard time, fending that off and surviving it because, it's already having a hard time keeping itself alive.

You're really hard on the system and I think you're right. I think for a lot of people, it was scary for them. It was. A flight to what can I do to be in a better position health wise, even the guy that I'm working at working out with right now, he's in wine sales and he's like [01:24:00] during COVID, there was like a big jump in alcohol sales post COVID.

It's actually become less popular, like less people are drinking, especially younger people, which is really interesting, right? When normally that's. Prime binge drinking. Yes. They're like, yes, this is dumb. Why are we

Shante: doing this? I saw a meme and it was like alcohol is boomer technology If

Danny: yeah, like I know, I don't know I don't know a ton of younger people but I like the ones that I do know they don't really They don't really drink the way that we used to like, I just

Shante: messed up man.

I can't do anything shit

Danny: You do. But if you really think about it, it's Oh my God, this is poison. You can die from this. Yeah, exactly. Let's just take it to the edge. See what happens. Drink some poison. There's lots of other ways to get a thrill besides, just like literally alcohol poisoning.

But I think you're right. And I think it's a good thing. I hope it is something that continues to go that route. If nothing else, it's scary people for a short term and some people, that's what

Shante: some people do. Yeah.

Danny: It [01:25:00] didn't work for some they didn't. I don't know.

Maybe they need more than that but it's definitely I've seen in my own family. Like everyone in my family is more healthy because of it. Almost all of them are in healthcare, right? So they've all firsthand had to deal with a lot of the ramifications of it, but they see they're like, okay. One plus one equals two, you you treat yourself better, you're more likely to survive pretty much anything, but also you're able to experience

Shante: the world around you in a better way.

Enjoy, actually enjoy life.

Danny: That's it. Yes. Why don't we do this? I feel like. I actually don't know how long this went, but this was a lot of fun. I really appreciate the opportunity to have a conversation. It's always so good, Denny. I just think I like your perspective on the profession, number one, but also I think that it's just fun to be able to talk to somebody like we could really couldn't be much more different.

Exactly. We just can't. I love that. But yet we have so much in common. Yes. And I think if anything, I hope people realize that, it's just dude, talk to somebody. You know what I'm saying? Have a conversation with somebody. Cause we may, I guarantee there's plenty of stuff we don't agree on, but.

Even still, we're so [01:26:00] open to listen to each other and have a conversation. And I really, I just appreciate your perspective on anything, on all of the things we talked about. But also, just being able to, catch back up with somebody that I think is doing some cool stuff in the profession. And, be able to spend a couple, I guess at this point, a couple hours just having a conversation.

It's going to make my day better, right? It's going to make... Yeah. That's right. Don't be a drain. I heard that. I heard that the the Kelsey brothers podcast, they they had a coach that gave him a book. I think it was the energy bus. And they're like on the megaphone, he'd yell at him. He's Kelsey, you're being a drain.

I tell my kids that all the time. Now I'm like, are you being a drain right now? Are you being a fountain? Cause they'll just be like, a little poopy pants about something they needed to do. And I'm like, you're being a drain right now. Stop. I love blue pants. Be a fountain. And then they do the same thing to me because I'll be like, ah, I don't want to do this.

You're like, you're being a drain. Just go rake the leaves. Be a fountain.

Shante: Danny, what are you reading? I feel like you always have or listening to. That's your

Danny: thing. I just [01:27:00] picked up a book this is a new book for me and it's Jimmy Carter, the book is called Faith. I'm not a, I'm not a so every time I travel, I go to a bookstore.

Normally what happens is I try to pick up a book for my kids or my wife, right? Ashley was with me, so she picked out a book for herself, I forget the name of it, and I was walking around and I'm like, I don't know. And I saw this book and it's it was very small. That's a prerequisite for me.

Yes. Danny. Yes. Yeah. It has to be a readable book for me, which is tough. But Jimmy Carter they have the Carter Center here in Atlanta. I, I think he's just like such an interesting guy. And I I picked the book up, but it's his view on on faith. And I'm not a religious person by any means, not even close.

And no offense to anybody who is, it's just not the way that I'm wired. But I am a huge, believer in, in faith and just, I don't understand it very well either. For me, I found I like to read other people's perspectives on it. People that have really spent a lot more time [01:28:00] thinking about it than me, and then see if I believe them or not believe them, but agree with their thought process and how they got there.

This has been a lot for me the last, I would say probably like 12, 24 months where I've read a lot of different books that are in the same line. So anyway that's what I'm reading right now. I just started. I can't really say one way or another, whether it's any good or not. But I'm only maybe two chapters in into that one.

What about you? Huh? Danny, did you not expect that one? Did you know a book on faith by Jimmy Carter?

Shante: It's I didn't, but it's still very on brand because it's you. And I'm like, yes, Danny is going and learning and. Feeling things out and taking what serves them and, leave the rest. But, oh, I would have never guessed that, for sure.

I am not nearly the reader that you are. I usually can't get past the first chapter. So I'm like, alright, I got it. This is just repeating the same thing over and over again. But Morgan Housel, his... second book just dropped. What is it? I wrote his first called same as ever. Yeah. It's called, I think it's called same as ever, same as always, something like that.

And it's a different take on history in terms of looking at what things have stayed the same. [01:29:00] Actually, I was going to ask you the question about the, that's where my question about PT industry and what's are we, have we hit the top when, where are we at? Because I also think it's really valuable to think about.

What things stay the same and that's what that's largely what he's talking about is what stays the same I will bet on those things and just a reflection of that I think I'm like maybe I don't know two chapters in but it's sure it's an audible book he didn't read it though which I was thought I was like, Oh, how come you're not

Danny: meaning like this first book.

Yeah, I've been digging into like my family's sort of ancestry. com stuff.

Shante: Yes, a little picture you had up the other day, like I look just like you. Look at this

Danny: fucking guy. I was about to show you. Look at that. It was you. I was like. Look at that guy. Look at that. Happy as can be on his wedding day.

Look at. That's in the. That's in like 1895. Alright. You think about. Think about I think you talked about things that have stayed the same that we think are different. I guarantee you those two people, they're thinking about the same things that they want, the same, challenges and fears and all these other [01:30:00] things.

And we're not that much different, then however many. Years ago, you look back, it's so sim, it's so similar. So I think that the premise of that book is interesting, but also to have perspective that is so helpful, right? To, to just to, I think if anything, I, it makes me feel better where it's this isn't a new problem.

The problems that we have are maybe slightly different, but. They're still the same, right? And everybody wants to move towards the same thing, right? So I don't know. I think having more of an understanding of where you come from helps me understand. That I'm not any different than they were, which makes me actually feel better.

Shante: Totally. That's, that is the feeling that when I brought this up as well, cause I saw that post that you did and I was like, this is exactly what Morgan house was talking about. Same with that. And then talking about the future, but also talking about the things that have happened that are like catastrophic, that are monumental.

You could have never predicted. And that's why. And he talks about risk. I think risk, the quote is like risk is what's left over when you think you've planned for everything. Something [01:31:00] along the lines of that. And it's just because you cannot plan for it. Otherwise this thing wouldn't happen. Like COVID and it's yeah. Didn't plan for it. Cause no one like, and he talks about like the newspapers and articles that were out like just a few months before it, and there was no mention of it. And he talks about with the great depression and looking at. writings that came out and like even within a year of like it starting where like economists like didn't even see it and weren't writing about it and they were like, what's the five biggest issues that we face and like the economy was not one of them.

It was like, it was, I think, I feel like faith or something like that was like actually one of them. They were like five things and it was like these things that you didn't prepare for that you couldn't say, but there are also so many things that are exactly the same that stay the same. And and, you said earlier about, when you're talking about Kind of the businesses and people will just say, use the term praying and other people like that has stayed the same.

And as long as there's opportunities to be had and like these things to be made and greed, like that stays the same. You can bet on those things, you can count on those things. And yes, we [01:32:00] are experiencing very similar things and were in the past as well. So I'm excited to finish that and see, cause it's also short,

Danny: but yeah, I'll take a look at that.

That sounds, that's how I'm into stuff like that. Like I just I just like learning about all kinds of random. Thanks. Like my favorite thing to do if I'm on a flight is I go to the documentary section and I just watch the weirdest documentaries. I love it. I literally will watch just like the strangest.

I'll watch anything. I'll watch a documentary called The Compassionate Spy. And. It, I can't say, I don't necessarily agree with what this guy did, but he basically was on the Manhattan Project and he just leaked he leaked how we were making the igniter for the atom bomb to the Soviet Union at the time.

And his whole process was like if we're the only ones that have it, it could lead to more destruction than if there's multiple countries that, and it's a check for the other one. And it was just, was like such an interesting time that he was talking about, during that, what they were thinking and his wife and all this stuff.

And the ironic part is like his brother is actually a rocket [01:33:00] scientist that built the technology to be able to shoot these from not have to be dropped by a plane. And so it's just a fascinating story, but I'll watch a documentary on anything because I'm just like, Oh man, what's this about?

What were these people thinking? And anyway, I go off on a tangent about, but I just think that it's so important to try to like just I think it's you got to learn it. Don't just learn about one thing. I get it. It's it's cool to go deep, but. I think learning and exposing yourself to other people and their thought processes and maybe you could watch something that's complete opposite of that and see which one you agree with, but at least expose yourself to something that forces you to think differently about, what your view is.

Because we all have lenses that we see the world through. For sure. All of us. We all have different, things that we're biased by things that are past experiences. But also most of us never check that because it's hard. It's not cool. It doesn't feel good. Oh, am I being a dick? I just thought that's the way I was.

Or my parents, I used to have a really bad temper. They may be hard to believe, because I seemed like a really nice guy. Yes. But it's my [01:34:00] family was like, Oh, we're hot blooded. We're Italians. That's what we did. I'm gonna find out. I'm doing all this genealogy stuff. My fucking great grandfather killed somebody in a poker game, and he was in jail.

For most of his life. In Italy. And then he got out and moved to the U. S. Not the guy in that picture. That's the other one. But the other guy, Luigi. He's that's what happened. Like he has a criminal record of a significant one. From poker. And yeah. And my parents are like, oh, we're Italian. We're hot blooded.

It's no, that's not the reason. I bumped the brakes. That's my product. No one's ever solved this for generations. Let's fix it now. Stop killing people. It's a bad idea.

I love it. Anyway. All right. Let us do this. Let's wrap it up before people, stop listening to us . But thank you so much for your time today. Thank you, Danny. I really appreciate it. Hopefully you guys enjoy this one with Shante and I and as always, thank you so much for listening.

We really appreciate it and we'll catch you next week.

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