E464 | What's It's Like To Be A Staff PT In A Cash-Based Practice

Happy New Year! This week, I am joined by Roger St. Onge and his staff PT, Miguel Santiago! We talk about Miguel's perspective as a cash-based staff clinician and what that experience is like for him. Enjoy!

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Podcast Transcript

Danny: [00:00:00] Hey, I've got a question for you. Do you know if you're tracking the right data, the right metrics to the right key performance indicators in your practice? This is something that's huge for us and really helps us make solid decisions within our business, but the prior software that we're using to run our practice made it really, really challenging.

To actually get that data out and use it in reports. Since we've switched to PPG everywhere, this has actually become way, way easier for us to be able to have the right data. We have a dashboard of all the things that we actually want to see, the metrics that we want to pull, and it makes our life a lot easier to pull the information that we need to make the right decisions within our business.

So if you're running blind and you're not tracking the right things, or you're. Hard time actually pulling everything together. I highly recommend you check out our friends at PT Everywhere and see what they've got going on with their software platform. It's what we use for our practice. It's been a game changer for us.

You can check 'em [email protected]. I think you really like it. So here's the question. How do physical therapists like us [00:01:00] who don't wanna see 30 patients a day, who don't want to work home health and have real student loans create a career and life for ourselves that we've always dreamed about?

This is the question, and this podcast is the answer. My name's Danny Mate, and welcome to the PT Entrepreneur Podcast.

What we're gonna do live, guys, we're live, live in the Facebook group, PT Entrepreneurs Facebook group, and, uh, the PT Entrepreneurs podcast as well. If you're in the Facebook group, uh, welcome. You can always leave a comment. We'll try to answer all that stuff while you're in here. If you listen to the podcast and you're not in the Facebook group, make sure you head over to Facebook and join the PT entrepreneurs.

Facebook group with about, I think what, like 4,600, other 4,700 other clinicians. Now they're learning about business and cash model, hybrid model, all the cool things that we're trying to, uh, really help, uh, push forward in the business. But today, and this is, uh, again, Roger with some great, you know, ideas for topics.

We got his office manager come on, who was super [00:02:00] sharp. He probably had a bunch of people try to hire her and poach her, uh, from you afterwards. She's a, she's amazing. Uh, but today we have one of your staff clinicians, Miguel Santiago's. Uh, and ironically this is, uh, this is interesting that, you know, the school that he went to, MGH h in Boston, I got a chance to talk to a few years ago.

A friend of mine from the military, it's one of the professors there. Um, so it's one of the schools I've had a chance to kind of talk about. Normally I get on those things and I cuss more than I'm, I, you know, should, and I get a little excitable. So I don't remember if I did that during that one. Uh, but I didn't get invited back, so maybe I did, now that I think about it.

So I don't know. But obviously you, you know what's interest. Is now you're in a cash, you know, uh, you know, setting. So it's gonna be interesting to hear your transition and, and how that went. So, uh, today we get to hear from Miguel and Roger about, you know, going from an in-network practice to a cash-based practice, the pros and cons of that and like the transition because it is a little turbulent in some ways and, and kind of getting used to that model.

So, um, anyway, guys, thanks for your time today. I

Miguel: appreci. Absolutely. Thanks for having

Danny: us. For sure. So [00:03:00] what, Miguel, why don't we start with this. We know you went to MGH H so uh, tell me a little bit about the process of like, where'd you go after that? What was your first job, you know, what, and then eventually how'd you end up, you know, getting to, you know, Roger's practice?

Miguel: Sure. So I, uh, graduated. Well, m g h does things a little bit differently. So typically PT schools, they'll have like their three years and then they go off and they do their internships. Uh, mgh h your last year there, you do a paid internship. Uh, so I was out in Bridgewater, mass at a clinic doing my last internship slash working.

Uh, so I took the, I was studying, working 40 hours. And then I took my test, I think it was in January and then the rest of the year I was licensed doing my own thing. Uh, but I was working out of Bridgewater and then my now fiance is out here in the Connecticut area. Um, so I knew if we were gonna make a transition, I was gonna be the one that had to move cuz she's been here for about seven years working at a hospital.

Uh, so I looked at some other places in this. And I found a job, uh, out in West Hartford, Connecticut, which was a little bit closer to home. So [00:04:00] I came out here and that was, he, he

Roger: lives an hour away. Yeah. 45 minutes an hour. Oh, wow. Okay.

Miguel: Yeah, so my first job was out there, so it made sense to buy a house near there.

So that's why I live by an hour away now. But I actually grew up in this area. Uh, so I worked there for about two years. Got the house over there. Uh, and then just kind of honestly just the frustration built up and. Like I tell, I just told Roger, it's like full circle. You talked at my, um, my school, I, you talked about your book.

I looked into the book. I actually bought your book last year during the pandemic, read through it, uh, started like planting the seed, read a little bit about it and then I was like, ah, I don't know anything around here. A gym that I used to work at started working with Roger, so I knew his name, but I didn't know of Roger cause I was still out, uh, in Bridgewater in Con.

Um, and then one day I was frustrated. I was walking my dog and I listened to a podcast between you two. And that day I, I dmd Roger, and he was in, I think Disneyland. I was like, Hey, [00:05:00] this is long overdue. Like I should have met you a long time ago. The place where I used to work at like keeps telling like, Hey, talk to this guy.

Uh, and so I listened to your podcast. I saw a lot of similarities between how we thought in our stories, and, uh, I reached out to him and then that turned into me shadowing, and then, uh, that turned into me saying, Hey, a, anything opens up, let me know. And. Didn't really think much of it. And then the next week he calls me like, Hey, hey, remember when I told you, uh, I wasn't hiring?

I'm like, guess what? Uh, we're hiring. Are you interested? Uh, so it kind of had a, he met me right at the point where I was most frustrated, and then he did his, like voodoo sales, like, come over and work with me. And, uh, here I am.

Danny: Well, you know, I think it's, it's interesting to hear that because, uh, You know, it's, it's interesting when you look at the transition for a lot of people there's, there's frustration in the in network model, I think is just not, not everybody.

I think some people are totally fine in it, but, um, People [00:06:00] like yourself and Roger and myself, like we obviously get got very frustrated in that, in that, in that in-network, sort of like higher volume, uh, model and, and in particular with the patient volume that we were seeing, that the patient demographic, I should say it was, wasn't really the most appealing for, for me.

What was it about you that you were just frustrated about, you know, with the career path that you had chosen and gone to school for a long period of time for right? Like, what was it about that, that you're, you're just like looking for something else, you know, fairly quickly after Graduat.

Miguel: Yeah, so that was, it took me right after, so this was a better in-network clinic than most.

Like I wasn't seeing 40 or 50 patients a week, but I was seeing a fair amount. I think it was somewhere on, like, on a, a busy day. It was like 17 a day. Yeah. Um, so that's still a lot, but it's better than some other places. Mm-hmm. Um, so I think I didn't know any better and I thought that was pretty good. So I kept doing it for a while and I didn't know what else was out there, so I just kept continuing to do it.

But then the more, uh, at the time when I first jumped on, it was a brand new clinic. Uh, [00:07:00] it was a bigger. Kind of corporation. They had little, uh, satellite places where everyone had their own partner and they ran it a different way. Right. So when I started with just me and him, uh, and it was very different cause we were still trying to get some patients kind of like you doing a cash base kind of word of mouth.

And uh, so that was, life was good for at that point. Cause everything was really quality of care. It wasn't about the numbers. Uh, the bigger corporation really didn't care about numbers at that point cause we were just starting up. So they were just, Hey, do what you can to get people. Uh, and then the more I stayed there by year two.

It wasn't the. The environment itself, like the, the, my boss at the time, it wasn't that problem. It was the higher ups that were then putting pressure on him. And that's when I saw things changing. Uh, and it seemed like it was more, um, quantity rather than quality. Uh, so the times got a little bit shorter.

Um, Numbers got a little bit more important. Uh, and even simple things just like, hey, like how are you doing? I heard less of that, right? Yeah. So it got frustrating. And then the [00:08:00] demographic you mentioned, it wasn't, I'm coming from a sports background. Uh, I was a basketball player. I love athletics. I was a strength and condition coach.

Uh, and I wasn't able to do any of that. Cuz as soon as we got to that point, insurance was like, Nope, they're functional enough, they're good. Uh, so I got frustrated with that and seeing a lot of. Uh, Medicare and, um, people who just weren't really motivated to get any better. They were just coming because they were told to come.

Danny: Right? Yeah. Well, you know, I think that the performance side, your background just doesn't scream, put me in a high volume Medicare practice, right? Like just No, you, you, and it's funny, it's like what? You're in insurance. We're, you're done. You're like, no, dude, this is the best part. Like, you're, you're, you're not even letting me get the, the fun part.

Like I got through the easy kind of, sort of redundant shit and now like, I got to do something more skilled and, and more in your wheelhouse and, and they're gone. Or maybe they're not interested in it and they think they're, they're back to what they want to do. Um, you know, so for, for, for you, which one do you think was more of a [00:09:00] frustration?

Was it the volume or was it the patient population?

Miguel: Uh, I would probably say the population, the volume is something I got used to and like, you just kind of become a robot. You just do it. You don't really realize you're in it until you're out of it. Right. Uh, so that, that became normal. Uh, but it was more of the population.

And like you said, I wouldn't get to the point, the fun part. Right. And then you feel like you did them a disservice cause now you don't see 'em enough. And then, uh, at that point I was seeing people every half an hour. So if I wanted to get really technical with stuff, which was the important part in my eyes, uh, I had to do that between running and seeing two different people or having an aid going like, Hey, like.

Go start this person while I cue this. And then, right. We're in the meat of things. I had to go run over to the other person cause there's some type of complaint or uh, obviously they didn't pay to come see uh, an aide, so I had to be there. So yeah, it became really frustrating. Like there was times when I'd come back, like sweating cause I was running back and forth like between two different people.

Danny: Hundred percent, man. You know, it's, our program sounds similar because, you know, MGH h with [00:10:00] your last year being an internship, you know, uh, Baylor, the program I went to, it's the same way. Uh, so, you know, you have sort of this year under your belt as a clinician. I don't know if your, if you were last year, you were supposed to be, Like, um, a limited number of people or it was just like no holes bar, kind of, you just ended up seeing a full patient load, like, like ended up happening to us, basically.

Um, but I think you, it's cool cuz you, you get out of there and basically you have another year of experience from the beginning. So, you know, the, you, you were in two different in network environments it sounds like. Um, so, you know, be between the two of those. Was there like anything that you feel like could have happened with those business models, those practices with the way they have to be run, where you're like, man, I can function in this long term.

Like, I'm not gonna regret, you know, ma being a clinician. Like, is there anything you would change with that, that would, that would make a difference? That, besides the volume and getting cooler people in? Yeah, I

Miguel: mean, I think the, the first place where I finished my, my last year at m. They were in network, but they did, my boss at the time, there was very like, heavy on, uh, [00:11:00] quality, right?

So they were still in network where they tried to make, I think the treatments were 45 minutes. Uh, evals were an hour. We saw less people. So I think I was seeing max of 12. So even better than what I was seeing before. Uh, and at the time I thought like, that's a ton of people. Yeah. And then when I left that, that's the other place, I was like, all right, this is a lot of people.

I was doing fine there. So I don't think the, uh, the volume. And the people. Yeah. Is a big deal. I think the other piece of it is, How the day's structured. Um, I think even just switching the timing of things and how, where the breaks were throughout the day, uh, could have made it a little bit more manageable.

Um, cause I felt like I was able to do some of that stuff. But again, it, it becomes more when you're documenting and, and treating like what you can and can't say. I found myself. Saying the same thing very differently, uh, because if I said it, Hey, we're working on deadlifting and squatting, automatic denial.

But if I said, um, Hey, we're work on. I don't know, functional activities are like [00:12:00] age appropriate activities. All of a sudden we got 20 visits. It's like, alright, well now I'll do this. Uh, and it was weird. Boston and Connecticut were very two different, very like vibes in terms of like the insurance companies.

So we, I saw less denials out in Boston than I did in Connecticut. I don't know why. I was

Danny: doing the same things. Yeah. It, it is interesting, but it's, I think the frustration is you have to play the game. You know what I mean? Like, that's, uh, that, that's, that's what gets kind of old. And I think what I've heard you say now, I don't know, probably three or four times is qu quality.

Like the, the idea of quality. Um, you know, I, I had someone explain this to me one time. It's, it's like certain people have a job and other people, it's like their aren't, it's like the thing that they're trying to become best in the world at. Right? Like, and from what I've found, One of the biggest frustrations with people that feel that way is that they don't have the time and or the, the compliance in some cases from people that, like you have a, you know, a, a one year long grade, one ankle sprain work comp patient, and you're like, This guy don't want to be here.

Like he's [00:13:00] just, he should have been better. He's obviously going through litigation, like there's a lot of layers to that. And, but for somebody like yourself, you're probably like, dude, this sucks. Like, I'm trying to help you. You don't wanna get better. And that's enough to make you like frustrated to the point where you wanna find something else, not because you're not getting paid or you don't have benefits because you, you don't know if you're getting the outcomes you should be getting because of the lack of compliance or willingness to do some of the things for somebody else.

So you know it for you. Now that you've, you know, made a transition to a practice, um, that, that is a cash-based practice, uh, what have you found like are the best parts of the model that, uh, that, that you really enjoy and, and, and maybe allow you to kind of be more of that, you know, artist more so than just like plugging away at at patients.

Yeah,

Miguel: I think it's two things. One, uh, I say quality a lot, but that word gets thrown all over the place. Yeah. Like what quality means? Like I can actually devote my time to you and feel like I did something. Uh, like some people would say, Hey, you can be a quality condition [00:14:00] and do things in half an hour. If you're skilled and you want to look at, that's fine.

But at the end of the day, like. If you don't have that feedback from your patient and you're not truly invested knowing that somebody's coming in 30 minutes, like that's not quality in my eyes. This is giving me the chance to have a full hour with somebody, uh, and have carryover. We have the hour. I can talk to them, say 30 minutes.

Right. And that doesn't waste the session at all. Right? That might be the, the most important piece was the talking that there wasn't anything mechanical or anything that I had to do. They just needed to sit down and talk to. Right. So that, that was something that's opened my eyes quite a bit is I'm doing way more talking than I am doing anything else now, but people are getting way better now than they were at the other places where I was trying to do everything I could with my hands in 30 minutes and then leave and kind of transition, do both.

Um, the other piece I think would be like the outside. I'm not, I have the freedom now to go out and go to places where I want to see. I'm not getting fed things, it's just I go meet people, I network, I do a good job with [00:15:00] somebody, word of mouth comes, they know what I'm about and what I've done. Um, it's a luxury that he's worked with some of the gyms that I've worked here, so they already know me before I was a pt, so I already have that built up relationship with them anyway, so that there's already a trust there.

Um, but I'm learning way more now about networking. I've met. Uh, like 15 gym owners in the last two months, uh, just by going out and talking and networking and hanging out with him. And, uh, I think that has allowed me to treat more people that I actually wanna see and who actually wanna be here. Yeah. All right.

Yeah, so,

Danny: but it's, it's interesting what you said too, right? It's, I, I think if anybody's listening to this, and they're a fairly new clinician, what you said is, You're, you're, you're having more conversations, people are getting better, and you're doing less of what you think you need to do or what we think we need to do to get somebody an outcome.

And, uh, early on, I, I wish somebody would've told me this, and then if they had, I prob maybe it wouldn't have even soaked in because it's hard to even, you know, realize that that's so [00:16:00] beneficial. But it sounds like you ha you have the opportunity to connect with people and, and probably a better skillset to do so now.

Um, and more of the hands-on exercise prescription stuff that we really are like, we obsess over getting better. Um, maybe isn't quite as important as them feeling like they're in the right place, feeling like they're working with the right person and, and building trust. Right. So can you talk to that a little bit, because I think that's such a difficult yet.

Really important skill that students and new clinicians, honestly, I think they struggle with, unless the only time I've seen this is people that have like a lot of life experience. You know, they're, they're like a second career. They've got a couple kids, you know, they're just more like empathetic and, and they tend to crush it with, with that side of things, even though maybe they're, they, they might do it not as well, uh, on tests.

Uh, you know, just, uh, you know, I, I'm just generalizing that from people that I remember from school. They were awesome with patients because they, they were better at listening, you know? So for you, yeah. So like, tell me a little bit about it. I'm, I'm really interested. [00:17:00]

Miguel: So, I mean, I don't have a, like a ton of life experience, but that was me.

Like, I was not very good with test taking all the, like the, I actually was dismissed from a PT program prior to going to MGH h so, and I was told maybe PT wasn't for me. I was literally, Be the profession for you. Uh, so that kind of lit a fire under my butt. But, um, yeah, no, I, I I think it's, it's two things I think coming outta school your mind says is I need to fix everything.

And you're kind of taught that way because that's the way the test is, is kind of written like, what can you do to fix this? Uh, and then the more you work with people and you try stuff and you fail, and, and I don't like using the word fail, but the more you learn through, uh, maybe some inefficient techniques or tactics, whatever you wanna call it, um, you started noticing that, Hey, you really don't have to do as much.

Also, coming here, I've learned a lot just from Roger, like mentoring me, uh, things that I might have not looked at the same way. What I, I noticed is I started to do this at the other job towards my end. Uh, at the time there I was doing a lot [00:18:00] more talking and people were just more appreciative of their time, right?

I was doing less fixing things and crazy stuff, and we were just sitting and like really realizing what goes through the day. Like what? Like, yeah, it's not always you who needs to fix things. Like if I told you X, Y, and Z and those things are working, but then. Let's say half your day, you're doing things that are probably making what you're doing to make yourself better, and it's actually putting you in a worse spot.

There's nothing I can do to change that. That has to be you. But having, letting them realize that on your own, maybe through some questioning or or talking, um, I think really opens up the door to be like, oh man. Like, it's like he actually is doing a good job. I'm just ruining everything. It's not like to make them feel bad, but it just.

Opening up their eyes like, all right, well, I told you not to do X, Y, and Z, but now when we break down what you did from seven in the morning to one in the afternoon, I'm doing X, Y, and Z. Just didn't realize

Danny: it. Yeah, that's great. You know, I, I had a, I had like a really, uh, funny moment with somebody. That, uh, ear, early on in my career, I had this [00:19:00] guy that was a, he was like a, a tech entrepreneur, and he came in to see me with like, just terrible, uh, bilateral arm pain.

Just very vague, whatever. And, uh, you know, we, we try to have, Long discussions with people, especially on the first visit, where we just wanna know what the hell's going on. We have the time to talk to them, build some rapport. It's like the most important thing I think, that you can do. And yet it's what most people skip, uh, past as quick as they can to get to all their special tests.

And I started talking to this guy. I'm like, all right, well, tell me a little bit about sleep and like all these other factors associated with it. And I was like, well, tell me about your day. He's like, well, you know, I'm on my computer a lot. And, and then I, I was like, so, okay. Is she sitting. We have a standing desk.

He's like, no, I'm in bed. And I go, what are you talking about? And he was like, I lay in bed on my computer and he code, this guy was like coding all day, right? So what he would do is he would lay on his back and prop a pillow up, and then he would put a pillow on his, like basically his like pelvis, and put the computer on top of it.

And he would code like that all day long with his neck and just like the worst position, just [00:20:00] completely flat on his bed. And. And they're like, dude, you can't do that. You know, like, you're doing this for extended periods of time. So what was interesting, and he'd seen all these other people, I was like the fifth person he'd seen, and no one had ever asked him about what his day looks like.

And, you know, within a, within a few weeks he was like, totally fine, because we just got him to stop doing this shit. But he didn't realize what was causing all his problems down in his arms. And, uh, he was like, like it was some sort of miracle or something, but all it was, was a conversation. So, you know, I feel like for you, Roger, I know we're obviously the sales side is kind of intertwined in that, but um, how do you go about, you know, taking somebody that's a newer clinician and helping them realize just like how important those conversations are from an outcome standpoint, but then also it's a business too in like getting compliance with them doing a plan of care.

Yeah, I think, um,

Roger: Excuse me. A lot of, we spent a lot of time together before anybody treats, so I think you just hung out for a month, a whole month just observing systems and processes and treatments and like just [00:21:00] getting ingrained in the system. You hung out at the front desk and like listened to how their conversations are structured to, so we can understand what it's like to come on board.

Like in the our, our processes. It's really important because all of those conversations for. Start at the front desk. Like we get real deep into things. Yeah. Um, you know, wise and how it's affecting you and like, what's gonna happen if it doesn't get better and it becomes a really emotional conversation so they're already like in it to win it before they come in, you know?

And then, He gets to see that transition of us being able to take that information from a phone call that I didn't even have start applying and asking questions and having conversations right away. Um, and, and, and then like literally four weeks of not treating, not doing anything but just observing.

Right. And then also having that mentorship time built in. I mean, we have. At least, you know, four hours blocked. Sometimes things move around in the week, right? We have four hours of mentorship each week, um, blocked out to have these clinical discussions and to [00:22:00] have like, Hey, what went well for you? What didn't go well for you?

Uh, you know, here's how we look at at things and think about things and discussions to be having. And, and I make a point, um, all the time to just point out how. You need to be with questions and how people can be poor historians and like give you the wrong inform. Like we had a knee patient the other day.

It's

Danny: like

Roger: the worst. Like, it's like, oh, is this the what you're feeling? Nope. This isn't your pain. No, what I feel is here, but where do you feel he, you know, when I do this and I got here and like we had to learn to ask the right questions to actually get the patient to even realize that like you're, what you're saying doesn't make sense and that actually is your pain.

Right? Right. It's like. And then having just deeper conversations and, and just seeing that, right, and then seeing how much common sense it makes afterwards. Like when you do something, you're like, that makes sense. It's not because there's some like, uh, elaborate research study that's done on it. It's just like, [00:23:00] huh, yeah.

One plus one does equal two. I don't need a 17 studies to tell me that. And just seeing how that carries over to the patient, then having that understanding and being. Why is nobody, like you said earlier, why has nobody ever told me this before? Yeah. Right. And then just seeing the self-efficacy of the patient's rise from, from the perspective when you're just watching.

I think it's just attention gathering. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. I mean, there's sales in there. You know me, I love talking about sales, so I, everything back to sales. I'm like, listen, you're really just selling this person on their ability to get better over and over

Danny: again, and getting them outta their own. Well, I think what you bring up too is the fact that like, really good selling is just a conversation where it's, it's clarifying, uh, what's wrong and what the solution is.

And if you're the fit for that, then this should be a very easy, uh, transaction. You know, it should feel very natural and it shouldn't feel. Forced, or I think in Miguel, I'd love to know how you, this transition has been for you because going from like in-network to [00:24:00] the, the, the cash model, like I think the biggest hurdle for people is the conversation of like a plan of care and what it actually costs.

Because normally that doesn't happen and in-network, right? It's like, well, you have this number of visits and the front desk will handle all of whatever versus. Now you gotta like, talk to them about making a legitimate like investment for a lot of these people in, in solving a problem. So how has that, uh, skill development gone for you and, and like what has been challenging for you to kind of, to pick up?

Miguel: So I think initially that was my biggest fear coming in was like, all right, sure. I have to actually sell, like I sell out myself and what I know, uh, where before I, I didn't have to, I never thought about that. I never thought of it that way. And when he used to say sales all the time, like, you're gonna have to get good at sales.

And this, I kept thinking about it as a sale. Uh, and that. Held me back, right? Every time somebody said, no, I got nervous. Like, what's gonna happen now? Is he gonna fire me? Am I not gonna get a sale of this?

Roger: That's, hold on, relax. It was like we did a ton of sales training and then like he sold the source package.

He's like, [00:25:00] that was it. I just explained, I just explained to them what

Danny: we're gonna do and they just gave me $3,000. That's where I going.

Roger: It's like, he's like, that's all this in my head.

Danny: Yeah. And like it's so,

Miguel: so, so the transition became a lot easier. Cause when I stopped thinking of it as a sale, once I got the first one under my belt, and it was like, all right, well I'm pretty much doing the exact same thing I was doing.

I was just trying to label it as sale. But it's really just explain to him what I found, what we can do to get better. Uh, and the piece that I didn't see before in insurance clinic, now I'm seeing, but now I can understand better where they're coming from. Cause a lot of times you'll get all the objections of like, Hey, no, that's a lot of money.

But then when you start, uh, kind of really putting it in perspective and changing the way you think about it, or reframing how you say things, uh, they start realizing, oh, like this is a bigger problem than I. Needs to be or hey, like that makes sense now I feel like an idiot for saying, no, I need to get this taken care of.

It's again, not pushing in their face like, Hey, this is your problem. You have to come see me. But just making them realize like, Hey, if you [00:26:00] don't do anything, this could get worse. Uh, this could affect this and that. And then they start really thinking through some things and then the money aspect starts to go away and you realize that really was never.

The objection in the first place. There were some other things that they were either unclear about, unsure about, or didn't understand, uh, the process which could have been on my part, which at first. Not knowing how we do things. I stumbled a lot in that piece, uh, and now doing it a lot more. And he made me practice how we approach things and how you talk things like multiple times, really awkward, just between like him and two, like on a, on a whiteboard.

Uh, and once I got better at that, things became a lot easier and there was less questions, less objections, less everything that I feared because I was actually explaining things correctly and being more on a human level than a sales level. Clarity, just

Danny: clarity. Mm.

Roger: It's so funny though. I keep laughing.

Cause as I was, uh, as we're going through like the sales training and things like that, he kept being like, you

Miguel: motherfucker, he's like, you were asking me these questions. He's like, you [00:27:00] did

Roger: this to me. I was coming

Danny: up for, yeah, it's so funny because I did it to you, uh, and then now you did it to Miguel and you know, it's like, but it's, it's, uh, it's just interesting when you start.

It's, I, I think the, I think the bigger problem. Is feeling conviction in what you're selling. Right. And, uh, with, with somebody coming into this model like, It's, I think there's a, there's some amount of, uh, anxiety around like, what if they don't get better? Right? I mean, I think that's, that's very common, you know, because if they don't get better insurance, like all, whatever, go back to your doctor.

Like, it's not a big deal. Like we feel more pressure e whether we should or not. Uh, to really, you know, go above and beyond. So how have you dealt with that, Miguel? Like if, you know, if you have somebody that just isn't making progress like you would want them to, and you've just gotten this person to, you know, commit to your plan of care is like, what, what is your, you know, framework around that?

What have you found to help you with that? Cause I think it's a big sticking point for a lot of people in the model.

Miguel: [00:28:00] Yeah. I, I think at first I really struggled with that cause I wasn't sure what like we were selling. Um, Like plan care is, they had 10 visits and I thought I had to get everybody better by that 10th visit.

Right. And I got nervous when people started inching up to that. I was like, all right, are they fully better? Are they not better? Uh, so patience is one thing I had to tell. Learn to really kind of look back and see, all right, what am I missing if I'm missing something? And if it's not coming on my end, it's back to that conversation of like, all right, what are you doing outside of here?

Uh, and what I noticed was a lot of times it wasn't what we were doing in here is what they were doing outside of here Sure. Or what they weren't doing outside of here. Uh, Kind of problem solving that I think helped. Uh, the other piece was myself is when I look back at some of the pla uh, the people who got close to the end and didn't feel better, uh, they, uh, they weren't feeling better, but they weren't in the same spot they came in for.

They were something new. They had popped up. Right. So the thing that we first came in and attacked did get. But they're focusing on some other pain or discomfort that just started coming up or had that, they didn't [00:29:00] tell me until visit like five or six. And then in my head, I was expecting to get everything better by that point, but we gotta be real at that point.

It's something completely new. We have to look at that clean slate and explain that to them. And, uh, once I got over that piece, I think that's helped me quite a bit, kind of get to that next level of like, all right, well hey, you are better in X, Y, and Z. You came in for, That is better. Right? And they go, yeah, so what's bothering you now?

Something else. So it's a different discomfort or pain or problem? Yeah. Okay. Well that takes a whole nother, like, um, it might take another couple visits to work on that specific problem. Uh, when you put it that way and you reframe it, they're like, oh yeah, you're right. I came in from my knee, now we're working on my neck.

That makes sense. Maybe we do need some more time in this. So, uh, it just goes back to just being clear on what's going on and understanding yourself. You don't have to fix everything within 10 visits. Attack what they came in for, and most likely other things are gonna start popping up. And that's where the kind of problem solving starts to come in.

And [00:30:00] at that point, if you're already doing a good job somewhere else, they, they trust you. So they, they'll, they're willing to come for more visits because they know you've helped them with something else. You might just have to show them that they are better what for what they actually came in for.

Little

Danny: sales plug here

too.

Roger: Like, we sell, we actually got rid of our six visit back if we have one or 10. Yeah. The way that I've trained Miguel is like if we're gonna offer a package, like we explain it in a 10 visit format, like, yeah. So if we were selling six or we had trained in the six, like how much more pressure would that have been?

Like, how much more stressful would that be for you as a clinician? Like, I've gotta get this stuff better and I've got almost

Miguel: half the visits now. Yeah. I mean, I, I think that's been a big difference too. Cause a lot of people. We're always debating six 10. They look at the price points and they're like, oh, I'm gonna go with a six.

Uh, and then you do get pressure from that. But then you realize same thing happens just a little bit earlier on, and you actually start to perform better because you have in your mind, I need to get them better. And that problem gets solved in one or [00:31:00] two visits. Now you're working on some other things, but now you have less time to work on those things.

Um, So again, just reframing them what the experience should be like. Like what to expect out of the six visits. Now it's 10 visits, uh, and they become pretty clear on that. They realize that what they came in for is better. It's like, okay, like now let's look at some other things and you might be able to do it in 10 visits.

You might not be, uh, and that's okay. And they're okay with it. Cuz now they trust you, they've seen your work, they understand where you're coming from and it's just educating them. Timelines of things and understanding what is actually going on. Uh, and a lot of times we see people who come in from insurance-based clinics who, uh, let's say have been failed by regular insurance, and all of a sudden they start to feel better and they're like, oh, alright, well I've been dealing with the shoulder thing.

Let's try to treat that too. Right. All right, well, we need some support for that. They're like, yeah, no problem. We did this. I can, you can do this. Right? Like Sure, we can, we can look at it.

Danny: Yeah. Well, I think that, that it's not. The, like, the, the package model isn't the, it doesn't have, you know, its own [00:32:00] flaws and things of that nature.

Uh, it, it's not perfect and it's obviously, it's, if there's something better that, that we figure out and comes along, we'll adapt and improve, but, When it comes to getting somebody to commit to solving a problem, I think this is what it does better than anything. It's not really, uh, about how many visits do they need.

It's about them actually committing to solving a problem, which oftentimes people don't do. And then it's very easy for them when, you know, maybe after two visits they're not exactly where they want to be, and they're like, well, this isn't working, and they do something else. It stops that it, it really just like completely avoids that and allows you to have the.

For a couple things, and I think one thing that we get to do that is incredibly valuable, way more valuable than anything else that we do with them, is educate them on skills like you're talking about outside of the clinic that will continue to snowball and return dividends for them for their entire life, not even including the people around them that they can have some.

[00:33:00] Like generational health improvement with their friends and their family as they're learning this information that frankly we just take for granted. Cuz we think everybody knows that they shouldn't be laying in their bed with their neck all jacked up, you know, coding all day. Like, it's, it's not, it's not common sense necessarily.

We think it is because we're so aware of it. So I think that's the part that we maybe don't think is as valuable as it really, really is, um, for these people. And, you know, for you guys, That seems to be a common thread with just everybody that we talk to that gets really good outcomes, and it's because they're getting buy-in and they're good educators.

Right. So for you, is that something that you had to work on going from the in-network model to the, to the cash model? Because you definitely have like more time with somebody. Right. So, you know, filling that time sometimes for people can be, uh, challenging, uh, and carrying those conversations and making sure they're like educating people in depth on the things they need.

So how, how has that skill development been for you?

Miguel: So I, uh, I'm a super introvert. I don't really like to talk with [00:34:00] people, but yeah, in here I have conversations with 'em. I'm really good at talking with people when I have to. Right. So when I first had that opportunity to talk for an hour, I was like, all right, well, this is great.

I only had half an hour before I could get to do so much. Now that I'm actually talking more, it's like, all right, well, It's more like what can I fit in this hour? Like it changed and the more I did it, uh, but it was more strategic of how I planned how things were gonna go. I scheduled like 20 or 30 minutes just to talk.

Yeah, let's attack this first and then we'll go into some of the more skill stuff. Cause I realized that that was a little bit more important than the skill stuff. Um, and I think other people start to buy in too, and it's something we, we've talked about in the past is like we value their. I'm not asking them to come in twice or three times a week like I did somewhere else.

Cause that's how I thought it was supposed to be. Like. We see them once a week, so taking that hour now becomes a week of stuff within one hour. So I learned to kind of strategically look at things a little bit differently within that hour and being more, he always says it like, Is what you're doing the most efficient thing to [00:35:00] be doing right now?

Like, if I sit there and cupping for 15 minutes, is that more efficient than maybe a manual technique or maybe a conversation that I need to be having, questioning some stuff? Uh, so my mindset has changed a little bit of like, all right, really being picky on what I do and how I do it, and trying to make it the most efficient thing for that point in time.

Danny: Yeah. What about documentation? Let's talk about that. Cause I think that's one of the things that is like one of the better. Uh, life changes, you know, that that happens. That we had the, one of the, the last guy that we actually hired, um, He was the clinic director of a, like a small in network clinic. And, uh, and you know, obviously he had like a full, full patient caseload and his Saturday morning routine was, uh, catching up on documentation for like two to three hours every Saturday morning.

And I, I told him like, I was like, this is a terrible Saturday ritual dude. Like it's, there's like so many better things, right? And. And now he doesn't do that anymore. Uh, and he never actually has to like document when he gets home. He just knocks it out while he is, uh, while he is, you know, at the office.

Um, so [00:36:00] how, how's that been for you, like the duration of time you're spending on that and, and just like, how much of your week do you get back now because of that?

Miguel: Oh, that's amazing. Like my whole week, like the entire week, like, he just yelled at me the other day. He goes, I read water your notes, like do less, like, don't, like, you don't have to do that much.

Like, don't be that like crazy with like do less like get your plan in there, get what you need to get in there, but. Do less, like you're still doing too much. Uh, and to me, I'm doing way less than what I was doing before, so he's asking to do a little bit less. But that's opened my afternoons up, that's opened my mornings up.

I can actually focus on somebody during their session. Where before, yeah, because of the documentation. I felt like I was doing it during, while I was trying to treat, while I was trying to watch, and then somebody else was coming in. And then even with that, I still had hour, two hours when I got home. I'm doing more documentation, maybe catching up from the day before or something like, Um, so my life's opened up tremendously.

Uh, my mood has changed. Like my wife has told me, or my fiance has told me multiple times, like, you're a different person. Like, you're not coming [00:37:00] home grumpy and like angry at the world. Like you're actually like interacting, being nice again. Like, like something that I didn't realize I was doing, but I was just so frustrated with all the notes and stuff and I couldn't spend time with her.

Uh, with my family now doing. Networking, that type of stuff. That's really cool to hear by the way. That makes me feel good. So that's opened up. Yeah, it is been really, really big time. Like weekends were still notes. Like I would try to do my best to finish everything and I would manage to do a good job.

My notes probably weren't very good. Uh, and they were probably my, that means my care also was probably not very good cause I was focusing on the note so much. Yeah. Um, but that's over my afternoons and time, just

Danny: tremend. Yeah. You know, I, I look back, like when I was in the Army and, and, uh, you know, I, and I got out, it was very common for when, especially when you had initial evaluation, you had all these things you had to go through.

So you would be like asking questions and just like typing it up as you're asking questions, uh, on the initial [00:38:00] evaluation because you had this super long standardized form that you had to go through. And I, I remember when I, I got reassigned, uh, to another job. The, the guy that was like training me up.

He had a little bit more seasoned guy. He had like a, a sports fellowship under his belt and. I remember I was going through it in the shadow and he was like, what are you doing? And uh, I was like, I'm, I'm knocking out the, the eval. And he was like, this, you're not even like looking at this person. Like, what are you, what are you doing?

You know, and you're, you're literally just typing and how do you expect to build rapport with somebody? And I was like, well, I don't know. This is how everybody seems to do it. I just figured this is what we're supposed to do. And he, he like, he brought up the importance of like building that rapport from day one.

That shift, it made such a big difference once I started to actually like, have a conversation with somebody and then I would've to catch up on it would take a little bit more time, but it definitely was, was worth doing it. And I think that, uh, you know, once you make that transition and you can get to that rapport with somebody and building a relationship, it's such, it's such a massive, massive [00:39:00] difference.

And, and other thing I think is really challenging is all little questionnaires that you have to do for the purpose of getting approval or asking for rep. All these things we, we, we just. To factor those in, into how much time in a week somebody is, uh, you know, is actually spending, and the fact that it was like, you know, detrimental on your home life.

It's, I, you know, I, I wonder how many people that's happening to as well. And they don't even realize it. Like they're just normalizing. They're just sort of frustrated and they're kind of just taking it out on everybody around them.

Miguel: A hundred percent. That's how I felt. That's, and I didn't realize I was in it cause it was just, Yes.

I felt like that was how it was and this is the best it's gonna get.

Danny: Yeah, yeah. Which sucks. Like, you know, and I think this, a lot of people are down on our profession and they, you, you hear shit like this and they're like, oh, well, you know, we had this additional questionnaire. It's only another minute.

And you're like, yeah, but a minute times 15 people, you know, that's 15 minutes every day. Assuming you're really efficient at it, you don't forget to do something. You know, or, or I remember having to do like photo. I, it's [00:40:00] F O T o like measures, uh, for people. I dunno if you guys ever used that. It's like an objective measure and then try to get like a me.

Did you use this Roger? Yeah, I forgot those things

Roger: existed though, so,

Danny: oh, am I showing my, am I showing my age? I,

Roger: no, no. Every single, every single patient in my internship dropped every single visit, every single patient had to fill, fill out one of those methods and

Danny: let waste, when we did it, we didn't have, we didn't have iPads like when, when we started using these, they had to use these little fucking, uh, laptops and, uh, try to get like a 75 year old man to, to go through this, uh, you know, They were like, oh, it only takes two minutes.

It's like it takes two minutes for a 25 year old, but for a 75 year old that can't see very well and doesn't understand technology, who's sitting there for 20 minutes with this guy trying to get this damn photo thing and it had nothing to do with their, if they're actually getting better or not. So I think it's gets rid of a lot of that.

Yeah.

Miguel: The worst part is too, like when I started towards the end of my time at the insurance place was I would get, I would've to be on calls with the insurance company, try and get more visits, and they would base everything [00:41:00] off that exact paperwork that you said. And they're like, oh yeah, well, these scores haven't got better, or they got worse.

And then I would start playing games with that. I would've asked them like, listen, all right, if all these stay the same and one or two of these things change, like you're asking about running and jumping and sprinting. And that's never gonna change. They're 80 something. They don't do that. Right? So if one of these change average out to be the same, right?

And they would say, yeah. It's like, all right, so why are we looking at this? Like, why are we looking at sprinting? And something they'd be like, oh yeah, no, that's too functional. That's not a problem. Okay, well then why are we looking at this paper, right? Why are you basing everything off this paper? And they would get really frustrated with me and hang up.

But like, that's another. 15, 20 minute conversation that I would have to do that. I couldn't do notes, I couldn't treat people. I couldn't, so I just added up and added to the frustration a hundred

Danny: percent. Man. No, I, I agree. And it's just the redundant, uh, paperwork, sort of red tape stuff that's just, I think it just wears people down, honestly.

And it just detracts from the, the true relationship that is needs to be developed of helping somebody get back to something, [00:42:00] you know? And it, it, it complet. Sort of just removes that, which I, which I like so much. Um, you know, I, I think for you, Roger, I'm interested with bringing somebody from an in-network world to, you know, to the, the, the cash-based practice that you own.

Like what were, what were the hardest sort of things for you as a employer to kind of get to the point where, you know, you trust somebody with your rep reputation of your practice, which is, you know, really built off of, off your skillset early on. Like, what, what are the harder things for you as an employer?

Um,

Roger: everything just like Right, like just letting go, right? Yeah. It's, it's so hard. Most of the time in these cash-based practice, we are building off of our reputation, right? Like people are coming to see. Us. Like people aren't coming. They weren't coming to move athletics, they were coming to see Doc Raj. Right.

And that's a really hard thing to let go of. Um, and you know, I made some mistakes with our, our first hire. She's no longer, no longer with us cuz she couldn't uphold the, the standard. Um, but. Like just making sure [00:43:00] that the quality control is there and making sure that these guys understand that like, this is a reputation based business and it's all built on relationships.

And that's when the Miguel was talking a lot about earlier, you know, he didn't use that, that word specifically, but like when he was talking about having these conversations and spending time with people and quality, it's all about relationship building. You know what I mean? And meeting, uh, gym owners and things like that.

So just making sure that I set aside my time in order to properly mentor people on the importance of relationship building, how to build relationships, how to have these conversations with patients, and then be present in, in the business with them, right? And have our clinical time set aside where we. Um, also like we're reviewing clinical things, but then we have our own little, you know, 15, 20 minute meeting where it's just a check-in, like, Hey, what's going well?

What's not going well? How are you

Danny: doing? [00:44:00] Right. Like,

Roger: personal, professional, whatever it is. Um, and, and that goes a long way. And then, you know, if they're having, um, some, some trouble with somebody like, I'm available for co-training. Like, they'll be like, Hey, like I just want your thoughts on this. And most of the time it's like, I'm not co-coaching the whole session.

I'm just like popping in and being like, Sounds like you're exactly right. Miguel, nice to meet you. Uh,

Danny: we'll see you. I think that's healthy though. That's just collaboration. That's something that I feel like, uh, It just happens in good clinics anyway. Right. I mean, it, it's, it's not like we all know everything at all times, you know, and, and being able to get somebody that's just like, maybe not in the weeds as much with this individual person as you, I, it's always been so helpful.

I don't, and, and I think for a lot of people, they don't want to have this perception of. Asking somebody else their opinion of it, it makes them look less, um, you know, competent. But honestly for me, you know, I think it, it just shows that that person, that you're just like honestly trying to help them and you're, you're trying to get as much support with that as you possibly can.

And anytime, I mean, I. [00:45:00] All of the questions that we have are absolutely smarter than I am. You know, so it's just not a matter of me even, you know, I don't even see patients anymore. So like it got to a point where it was so obvious that I was like, you guys have got to do this cause I'm an idiot now.

Cause I don't focus on any of this stuff. So, you know, I think it's, but it, it's, it's, as a team, it's great. And it also just builds this sort of, uh, you know, positive, open model of just everybody trying to, you know, help each other improve the lives of people who are coming to see us, which, Honestly what they want and what we want for them, you know?

So I think that's great to, to hear that and just have that open level of communication. So, um, well, cool. Well, well, here, here's what I would kind of leave it with. If, if, uh, if you guys are cool, I, you know, I would love to know, uh, for you, Miguel, like, do you have advice? Like you obviously like. Went out and found Roger, but like, do you have advice for anybody that's like looking to try to get a job in a cash-based practice because it, there aren't as many, obviously.

Um, so like what would you say if you had to tell somebody that's a newer student or somebody who's trying to make a transition, if they're trying to get like, employment at a practice like this, what would you do?

Miguel: Uh, [00:46:00] so initially I got the luxury you came to my school, so that was the first time I heard about it.

But I think it's becoming more popular because of so many people getting frustration, especially kind of my age a little bit below. And now like coming up, like that's more of a realization. There's more popping up. So just go and shadow, uh, find one. Like take the time, even if it's like an hour away. Like, go sit in, talk to the person, see how it works, and, and really be if you're leaving school for the first time and getting a new job.

Ask as many questions as you can, like, figure out what you're getting yourself into, whether it's insurance based or cash based. Um, make it a point to go shadow both and, and see what people are like outside of that. Uh, and not only in clinic, like your first thought is, Hey, like, what practice do you do or what do you do?

Like, how do you guys deal with this? Like, ask them like, what do you do outside of here? Like, how much time do you have outside here? What's documentation like? Um, who are you as a person? Like if they're gonna be working with you, like you should wanna like the person, like you don't wanna hate who's connecting with or [00:47:00] for.

Um, so I would say like, if you have the resources and you know, someone's in around you, like go shadow them. If you don't, uh, try to maybe jump into the. The Facebook group here or look into it some way. There's plenty of articles out there. Uh, I can't vouch for how great those articles are or how great the practices are, but like, do your research, uh, read your book.

I read your book. I learned a lot from it. I know he read your book. Um, I think it's just, it's really understanding, all right, what is cash based bt? Cause I think there's a very, uh, misunderstanding in terms of like what it actually is. Uh, some people think it's like a, a money hungry thing, like you're trying to just get as much money out of it.

Uh, but when you actually break it down and you're really doing the same thing, but you're adding way more value to what you're doing, um, the money piece is just a sales thing that you have to get a little uncomfortable with at first. It's doing the same thing like I was, I'm doing the same thing I was doing before, just now that it's with a little bit of a twist.

So just know what you're getting yourself into. Do your research, uh, read your [00:48:00] book, listen to podcasts. Do as much research as you can on it, and if it's something that interests you, go shadow. Go hang out. Sometimes that's all you need to do is hang out and all of a sudden, the next week somebody calls you and say, Hey, we have a, a job opening.

Danny: Yeah. Yeah. What about you, Roger, on the employee or employer side, what would you say? Reach out

Roger: to your people, right? Like every single person that I have and take students, right? Like a lot of times people in cash pt, I feel like they don't, they're like, what do. What do I do with a student like our other pt Alex, uh, he was a student.

He was a brand new grad. Right? And, uh, he came in and, uh, it took him some time to come out of his shell. Like I would not have hired Alex if he didn't come to an internship with us. But the kid is fucking intelligent, right? Like he's super smart. You just need some coaching. So one takes students, like if you can bring somebody in and they can spend three months or however long their internships.

Getting into your systems and processes and learning everything. Like that's a shoe-in. You just had three months of like a test run to see if someone can be a good fit. And [00:49:00] they're already familiar with your processes. Right? Like, hello, easy in there. But side of that, it's like, um, every single person that we've hired has been through our network, right?

Like my integrator, our manager, um, I sent an email out to my, uh, list. I was like, yeah, we're looking for a part-time. Right. And one of my patients was like, you gotta talk to Jess. She's across the coach over here. Boom. Brought her in, right? Uh, our, our, uh, front desk, Becca, she's a coach at F 45. Like, we just put it out there to the community, uh, and to see who, who it is.

Put it on Facebook, put it on Instagram, send it out to your email list. Make a little description of like what makes you different and, and be patient. Don't rush into hiring, right? Because good PTs are hard to come by, right? Like you can find people that will work with you. Are they gonna be people that are invested?

Right? I love listening to this cuz Miguel busts his ass, right? Like he's invested in helping build like the brand, right? He goes out there, he does [00:50:00] the networking, he does marketing, he's meeting, you know, two plus people face-to-face. Uh, each and every week right now, like, and he loves it. So you have to make sure

Miguel: that they have drive an hour to get

Danny: here.

He

Roger: drives an hour to get here, right? You gotta make, they're driving the motivation that they know what they're getting into. So take, take some time. Don't just hire the first person that, that reaches out or don't rush into it, but really make sure that it's someone that is gonna want to be around and that you're gonna wanna be around long term, right?

Like I always, uh, even if you don't ha drink beer or alcohol, like, but I wouldn't hire you if I wouldn't wanna. Drink a beer with you. Right. Because I want, we're gonna spend a lot of time together. We actually have like the biggest ragtag group of misfits here, but we work really well together. Right? So it's really cool cause we're all very, very different people that'll get along great.

And it's a very fun, I think, fun en environment to, to hang out in. And that's

Miguel: really the biggest thing. And I think one of the, the other things that led me here, And some advice is like, go talk to the person. Like make sure [00:51:00] you feel comfortable and make sure you feel comfortable getting uncomfortable with that person.

Mm-hmm. Like, make sure they're ing in some sort. Cause I, I laugh with him, like, I come here and we have meetings like every week and months and, well, the first time I came here he is like, we're having a what? A meeting? Like you're gonna talk to me like that's a thing. Uh, and I was involved in all the planning, all the everything.

And that had never been done before. I was never in meetings where I had a say in, Hey, is this the most efficient way or is it. He looked at me the first day. He Come here, come back. We got a, a new space. Like, what do you think about this? Like, I just, this is my first day here. Like, you're gonna take my opinion.

I think

Roger: that's awesome. Yeah.

Danny: No, no. I mean, well, I think dude, as somebody that has been employed before, you know, uh, the, I, I always appreciated when people. Wanted me to be a part of the process. I think it's very frustrating when you're just a cog in the wheel, you know, and you're not actually, no one cares what you think and your opinion on things.

And, and it doesn't feel very collaborative in any way. No [00:52:00] matter who owns the, the business. It's still a risk for, like, you're, you, you have taken risk by leaving, you know, a, a bigger clinic to come and work at essentially a startup, right? So like, let's, let's not like dis let's discount that at all. Like, you, you, you are part of.

Uh, as well, and I think that's like the coolest part of it, right? Is the synergy of people. It's a, you know, smaller, sort of faster moving, um, almost, you know, I don't know. It's a, it's a bit of a contrarian type practice in, in comparison, uh, of how we have to do things and, and, um, you know, it's, it's enjoyable if the culture is set up correctly, you know, and you know, an open conversation between people.

It has to be a part of it. Like, it just doesn't make any sense why it has to be this authoritarian. And Rogers, you've been in the military, you've seen it where there's like communities of people that are, there is rank, but there's also, they're not, you know, they're smart people no matter what. And taking opinions is really important versus where it's just top down, you do what I say no matter what.

And that's just always so toxic. I think it doesn't end well. So, um, you know, anyway, sounds like you're doing some stuff right, Roger? [00:53:00] We'll, we'll see what's, what's the voice saying? Miguel?

Miguel: The not expecting perfection. That was one of the things he was super clear first started, like he wasn't expecting me to come in and sell every package like right off the ballot.

Like Right. We knew it was gonna be a dip. And, and he was okay with that. So when there was times where I didn't, wasn't as efficient as I thought he'd be like, yeah, that's fine. Next time keep going. Like we're, yeah, like I'm expecting this to be slow for a little bit and then, It's gonna come. So I had to learn that too, of like, all right, well, like, it's okay.

Maybe not to be perfect. Yeah. I have to learn. It's gonna be a learning curve and that that's okay on my end. And it's okay on his end. Well, yeah. I mean,

Danny: it would be like you in basketball, right? If somebody took you and you've been playing point guard your whole life and they're like, guess what? Now here's a small forward, you know, it's like we realize you're not gonna be as good at this right away cause you're not used to it.

It doesn't mean that we're not gonna like, get there. So like yeah, I agree with you. Like being patient is hard on the business owner side because you know, you, it, it's, it, it is, there's risk and you, you see the numbers, you're very clear on it. You have a certain amount of cash flow and, and like the. Ends [00:54:00] when, you know, the business doesn't have enough cash to support everybody.

Um, you know, so, so there's real ramifications, but there's absolutely no way to expect people to come in and be as good as whoever started this because they sucked initially, uh, from, from the get-go. And it's just like the pressure is unrealistic, you know? So, um, that's, yeah. That is cool. What's that?

Roger: That's why I got some business coaching from someone who knew what they were doing.

Danny: Yeah. Yeah. Or you can just do what I did. It's just. Almost go out of business cuz you made all the bad decisions and, uh, and then barely hang in there and then decide it was time to get some help, which is the wrong way to go about it, um, if you can avoid it.

But, uh, stubborn people like myself don't have a choice. So anyway, guys, I really appreciate, you know, your, your time today. This was a lot of fun. Um, you know, uh, uh, Roger, I'll give you a, give you a chance to shout out, uh, the, the practice if anybody is interested in reaching out, out again, if you guys, you know, hire again anytime soon or in the future or whatever.

So like, if they're interested, where can they reach out to you?

Roger: Oh yeah, you can just look us up on, uh, on Instagram. Uh, it's a pretty reliable place to get ahold of us. Just move [00:55:00] athletics, PT, all one word, or Facebook, uh, or, uh, you know, you can shoot me an email if you guys wanna talk to me directly. It's just Dr.

Dr. Roger. Move athletics,

Danny: uh, pt.com. Done. Cool. All right guys, well hope you enjoy this one. Uh, Roger, thanks for the, um, for the the suggestion. Miguel, thank you so much for your time. Uh, it's always, uh, always fun to, to chat and then have a little different conversation. I think this is really helpful. So guys, as always, thank you so much for listening to podcast and uh, we'll catch you next week.

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