E626 | 3 Hiring Mistakes To Avoid With Yves Gege

In this episode, Doc Danny and Yves dive deep into the challenges faced during the hiring process and how they can lead to high turnover rates. They shed light on the common mistake of hiring individuals who are too similar to the business owner, as this can result in the new employee either trying to replace them or not conducting thorough interviews.

To help assess potential employees' natural tendencies, they recommend utilizing the Rocket Fuel quiz. Moreover, they offer valuable advice on making the first hire, suggesting the addition of an administrative person with complementary skills to provide a different skill set.

For the first clinical hire, they advise against hiring new graduates and instead recommend looking for candidates who are married with a mortgage, as they tend to be more stable and committed to long-term employment. Lastly, they stress the importance of having a roadmap of expectations to avoid being caught off guard if an employee decides to leave after a year.

The episode highlights the difficulty of finding entrepreneurial and hardworking employees for cash practices, as there is a risk of these individuals leaving and starting their own practice with the skills acquired from the job. To address this challenge, the hosts provide several strategies for protecting oneself. These include incorporating a non-compete and non-solicit clause into legal documents, structuring a base salary and bonus system that incentivizes employees to stay, and mentoring employees to help them become exceptional clinicians.

They emphasize the significance of creating a work environment that fosters employee loyalty and focusing on delivering exceptional service and products to retain clients. Ultimately, they emphasize that cash practices, hybrid practices, and performance-based practices can offer great growth opportunities, but business owners must take necessary steps to safeguard their interests.

The episode dives into the complexities of hiring and retaining employees as a business owner, emphasizing the challenges of delegation and the time-intensive nature of managing employees. The hosts suggest that one-on-one mentorship with a direct superior is the most crucial factor in employee retention. They stress the importance of having a clear vision of the future for employees and provide insights into the use of bonuses and compensation structures in clinic settings, offering examples such as a percentage of revenue earned or visits as metrics for bonuses.

They also highlight the need for base salary to constitute the majority of compensation, with some flexibility to allow for 10-20% below the general area average. The episode concludes by cautioning against the risks of employing contractors, as they may be classified as employees, requiring consideration of taxes and employment laws.

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Podcast Transcript

Danny: [00:00:00] Hey, real quick before we get started, head over to Facebook and join the PT entrepreneurs Facebook group. If you haven't done so yet, we have monthly live trainings going on there. There's an opportunity for you to join in the conversation instead of just listening to what I have to say on this podcast, as well as the people that I bring on.

And it's a really cool place to join about 6, 000 other clinicians that are. Honestly, trying to change the landscape of our profession through these cash and hybrid practices. One other thing that's really cool is we have a guide in there. That's a quick start guide. When you join, you can go and check this out.

There's about seven videos that we've curated that are the most common questions we get in the best case studies that we've found to really help you start, grow, and scale your practice up to seven figures. So if you haven't done so yet, head to Facebook request to join the PT entrepreneurs, Facebook group.

You have to be a clinician. We're going to check you out. We don't just let anybody in. But if you are head there, go ahead, get signed up. We'd love to have the conversation with you in that group.

So here's the question. How do physical therapists like us who don't want to see 30 patients a [00:01:00] day, who don't want to work home health and have real student loans, create a career and life for ourselves that we've always dreamed about? This is the question. And this podcast is the answer. My name is Danny Matei and welcome to the PT entrepreneur podcast.

What's going on everybody. Dr. Danny here with EGG. Going to live in the PT entrepreneurs Facebook group. If you're listening to this on the PT entrepreneur podcast, thanks for listening. If you want to see the video version of this, make sure you head to Facebook and join the PT entrepreneurs Facebook group.

We'll check you out, make sure you're actually a clinician, uh, and we'll let you into that if that, if you are, if you're not, I'm sorry, it's clinicians only. Uh, so if you want to see the [00:02:00] video, if you want to ask us questions while we're doing this, head over there today. Uh, even I get a chance to talk about.

Hiring and three big mistakes that we see that people make during not just the hiring process, but also with employees that lead to turnover. And I want to start by saying turnover is somewhat normal. Some amount of turnover is normal, especially with. Uh, younger clinicians. It's there's definitely more of like a free agent mentality versus let's say like my dad worked for, you know, the United States Army for 24 years.

And then now he is just this is his 20th year in the. GS system in the same hospital. So for 45 years, he's worked for the government. And that is like very rare nowadays to have somebody that's, you're going to see that it spends decades and decades with the same company. I don't think people feel as tied to the companies they work with.

I think [00:03:00] that they see a lot of other opportunities and I. That's just the sort of the direction that we've trended in, in terms of a lot more sort of freelance work, individual stuff, stuff like, you know, solo entrepreneurship, but also people that kind of. They want to jump ship and go to the next thing, uh, faster.

Uh, so there's lots of reasons why that's probably the case. So if you have turnover, I think it's normal. What we want to try to avoid is losing the wrong people. And I would say that we've all of us, you know, the two of us have had turnover. Um, and it's always a bummer when you lose good people like that always sucked.

Right. Um, and I know for me. We've had a couple of people that with our practice that left that I just thought were great clinicians, great people and looking back on it, I made a few of these mistakes that we're going to talk about today, so hopefully we can help you, you know, avoid some of that. Eve, anything you want to add to that in terms of hiring and retention before we dive into what these three mistakes

Yves: are?

Yeah. I mean, [00:04:00] um, same thing on my end. Uh, my dad worked for the same company, you know, for 42 years and, you know, never left. And I thought that was, it is so interesting to see that kind of change. And I think there's pros and cons with that, right? Pros are like, if you, um, you can capture talent, um, a little bit better cause it was kind of mobility and motility there.

Um, but also obviously downside because you have to work a little bit harder. For retention, but I think that's a, I think a good thing. Like, you know, obviously we thrive off competition and I think hopefully at the end of this live stream, you'll kind of know how to, you know, find, retain talent and keep them around long term.

Cause I do think it's still possible. It's not like it's not possible. It's maybe more unlikely, but it's still possible to keep people around long term.

Danny: Oh, a hundred percent. And I think that generationally it's just different too, right? Like my, you know, my grandparents. They're depression era people, right?

Like they lived through a period of time of scarcity, true scarcity that we've never felt and [00:05:00] what they experienced, obviously, you know, they impart their experiences on their own children. And for my parents, it was always like. Safety, security, finding a job that's like, you know, bulletproof. The government's about as, as bulletproof of employment as it possibly, you know, gets like, they're typically going to be around unless there's, unless something really bad has happened.

Right. So, you know, and, and I think that for us, like we've grown up in a time of a lot of abundance and we view things as like, Oh, I can always go back and get a job. I can always go back and do X, Y, and Z versus I think maybe for our parents, like they viewed it as. You can't always do that. Like you couldn't always, you know, you know, do that.

And, uh, and times are, they're just very different. So it is interesting to think about kind of where that comes from and, and you just don't see it all that common anymore. And I think for a lot of people as well, they view. Time somewhere. It's almost like it's like a bad thing. I don't know why that is the case.

It's [00:06:00] like I feel like they people feel like they're not on to the next thing and they're just stagnant. And I just don't know if that's the case. And I don't know if that has to do with the amount of content that's out there and how quickly get bombarded with information and what you see other people doing constantly on social media.

Um, I don't think it does people any favors about feeling good about themselves. But I definitely think that Yeah. Things were less visible, right? So you go into your job and, and, and taking pride in that. I, uh, I feel like, uh, maybe it's just not as, Common anymore, you know, definitely don't feel as aligned with companies, big companies in particular, which we can obviously we can get into.

But, um, let's do this. Let's dive into some of these. And then we can kind of share some, some relevant stories about kind of what we've seen with that. So, um. The first one that I would say the big mistake that I see people make is that they hire people that are exactly like them. So we talked to entrepreneurs [00:07:00] basically on a daily basis that are hiring clinicians and.

It's always funny when some, I'm like, why did you like that person, you know, they're like, Oh, cause they were, they seem like a go getter and they're, you know, like they're interested in marketing and, and they want to get out in the community and do education events. And, and I'm like, yeah, they're just like you, I guess that's maybe a good fit if you're trying to replace yourself, but.

More often than not, when you hire somebody just like yourself, uh, what do you think's going to happen? They're probably going to go and do what you're doing, uh, in the near future. And usually they also don't interview enough people, right? There's one person they're just like, and they're like, this is the, this is the guy, this is the girl that got to hire this person.

And, uh, if you're an entrepreneur and someone is very similar to you, they may not be the best employee. Like you just got to kind of keep. That in mind. Yeah. [00:08:00]

Yves: Um, you know, obviously we're a big fan of reading and books and I think right, it's rocket fuel that kind of had the visionary and integrator stuff.

And I thought, you know, that really changed the way I thought about, um, the hiring process and who I needed to fill because of the tendency is probably to find somebody exactly like you, you know, it's like, cool, I'm a, I'm a crossfitter and I'm a clinician and I think this way I don't do this. And like, you'll gravitate towards those kinds of people.

It's like, oh, this person's going to be a perfect fit. And, uh, a lot of times, um, It doesn't work that way, right? You need somebody, if I'm more visionary, I need somebody who's a little bit more detail oriented, you know, if I'm detail oriented, I may be one and a little more introverted. I may need somebody a little more extroverted.

And so we definitely see, uh, in general, if you can find somebody who can, uh, compliment. Your skills and provide a skill set. Maybe that's a little bit different than yours and shines. It can be such a good process, especially for that clear, you know, kind of number two, you know, and this could be an admin or it could be a clinician, right?

Somebody who, um, you know, can really expand [00:09:00] your skill set. I think it's huge because we do, we know that acquiring new skills and moving forward in your business is such, uh, is so huge for your growth. And, um, obviously having people like that can really, uh, you know, shortcut

Danny: it for you. Totally. And especially when people are hiring that, uh, admin, you know, cornerstone of the business, that day to day person, that's going to help keep everything or organized, you know, your office manager, your, your administrative, uh, support, whatever role you want to call it.

Um, that is definitely a role. That's typically going to be opposite of what that entrepreneur is. Most people, and this is obviously not everybody, but maybe 80% of the entrepreneurs that we work with, they're more visionary focused. They're big picture sales marketing. They they're creative. They get excited about new things.

They like change and. If you you're usually your first hire is going to be some sort of administrative support, not [00:10:00] necessarily just like fulfillment support. Sometimes people that go that way, but more often than not, it makes a lot more sense to bring on somebody administratively. And if you hire somebody that's just like you for that role in particular, they're probably going to be really good at communicating with people and, you know, building rapport with people in the office, but man, they're probably going to be.

awful at organizing your business. And I can think of a dozen different times when this has happened, when we've helped people kind of talk through what they should be doing. I mean, and everybody's going to do what they want to do anyway. It doesn't really matter what we say. And we can't, I hate telling people what they should and shouldn't do.

Cause it's not my place, it's their business, but we can just kind of give them some coaching and feedback on like what we see and experience shares and things like that. But sometimes people are so locked in on a certain candidate. And then all of a sudden You know, three months later, they're like, well, I had to let that person go because they were really bad at they weren't following up with anybody.

They weren't scheduling follow ups. They weren't calling people for their visits or [00:11:00] like sort of the detail tasks. They just weren't doing and oh, go figure. It's because they hate doing it. It's not natural to them. Like, it's very hard for that person to do a task that doesn't feel natural to them. So in that role in particular, I think that assessment is great.

That whole visionary integrator, I believe it's the rocket fuel quiz is what it's called. You can Google search this, but the book is rocket fuel. And it's a really good assessment of just like somebody's natural tendency. And you don't have to tell them, like, I'm looking for a visionary. I'm looking for an integrator.

Just answer the questions and you can kind of see where they, where they fall. And in an administrative position, you definitely want somebody that's going to be biasing more towards an integrator.

Yves: Yeah, for sure. I mean, uh, my story. Well, it across the gym started my practice and what I realized I was good at was seeing patients, you know, keeping around building relationships out in the community.

What I hated doing was, uh, any of the numbers, you know, Excel spreadsheets, uh, hated honestly hated answering the phone and having those initial [00:12:00] conversations. And so the first person I hired. Which was Dane, who ended up, you know, basically being a business partner by the end, um, and the COO was really, really good at that.

Like, you know, putting all the numbers together, looking at the KPIs, you know, um, was decent at systems, but he was way better at Excel spreadsheets. And then he was taking all the phone calls. And as soon as I got that person in place, the cool part was it allowed me to go build more relationships and see more patients, which kind of got me to the point now where I can hire.

You know, a condition. So I think it is. You're right. Just that first essential person to kind of compliment you and, um, you know, really build a good administrative foundational base. Uh, we'll just lay the groundwork, I think, for really expanding your practice.

Danny: For sure. And looking at that first clinical hire, um, I do think that you're probably going to find people that are going to be in either of those categories.

It depends on what you're looking for. You know, for me, I would say early on. Pretty much everybody that I hired, [00:13:00] uh, had some interest is entrepreneurially of doing something. Um, and if they didn't, by the time they get a chance to be around me for long enough, they, they were interested. And it's just like a disease that spreads or something, you know, with, with proximity to, to being around me, it happens.

Uh, and that's not great for a practice. Uh, it's, but it's obviously great for what we do with, with PT biz. But those, what was interesting with those clinicians, they were all relatively new out of school. Um, one of them in particular, actually the guy that ended up buying athletes potential, uh, was the, probably the most similar to me.

And. And what's, what's interesting is I feel like, uh, looking, looking back at it, like, I didn't know that's the direction we were going to go, but he was a perfect fit to kind of take the company and go forward with it because of just like, it's a very, we're very similar in terms of the things we're good and bad at.

[00:14:00] Um, so, so that actually worked out really well. So if you're planning on maybe an exit strategy, that might be an option to look at. But the other two, I mean, they were not people that I. That I thought were very much like me at all. Um, they just weren't interested in clinical things, very similar to what, to what I was doing.

Uh, and both of them actually ended up going and doing their own thing successfully. So, uh, and. You know, and it's, and looking back on it, I hired people that are pretty entrepreneurial in, in, uh, in those cases. And if I wanted somebody that was going to stick around longer, I probably wouldn't have hired right out of school.

And I probably would have hired somebody that had some experience. And there's a few key characteristics. Like if you want somebody stable, hire somebody that's married, has children and a mortgage, like those people are typically going to stay at certain jobs longer. They want healthcare benefits. They want stability in a paycheck.

They're going to. Require more money guaranteed, like their salaries are going to be more, but, uh, they're, they're going to be less transient and less likely to take a big risk on themselves and, um, you know, move on to go do their own [00:15:00] thing. If you're looking for stability in your schedule now, if you're looking for somebody that's going to be scrappy and kind of a go getter, like no doubt, you can get a lot of great work out of people that are newer out of school.

That are more entrepreneurial, like they will help market and grow and they'll do all those things. They're just not going to be there as long. So, you know, I think that, uh, you got to kind of know what you're getting yourself into and sometimes they can be like you. Sometimes they can be the complete opposite.

It just depends on what you're looking for and you have to intentionally hire, not just the skillset, but also the person, the type of person that you're looking to bring on.

Yves: Yeah. I think. The power of knowing all those things is super important, right? So a lot of times we have certain expectations and then we hire somebody and we think they're a long term fit, like you said, but it's a new grad, you know, who, who's running an apartment and, uh, Is it married?

Like, yeah, you're not, you should not expect that person to come in long term. So I think that's where people typically get tripped up is when they're, they have a certain expectation and then it's not that, and then they don't plan for it and [00:16:00] they're, they're there a year and they've offloaded their schedule and they did nothing else and they go, crap, I got to jump in.

So, you know, and that's the intention of these is just to get people to, you know, have a roadmap to understand, um, what are the likelihood, uh, scenarios, you know, and to go back to what you said, I think it is. Fine line between finding somebody who's entrepreneurial instead of, uh, entrepreneurial. And so, and sometimes you need to nurture that because I get that question a lot.

It's like, Oh, this person, you know, they want to start their own practice. Should I hire them? And I was like, you could, you know, I did that. And just like with you, I found somebody who was very. Entrepreneurial and end up selling my practice, you know, uh, to those people. So it's definitely possible, but it is a fine line, right?

You don't want somebody coming in, come hanging out for a year, getting all your skillset and opening up a practice, which does happen too, you know? So it's a challenge.

Danny: It happens a lot. Um, you know, and yeah, you know, uh, Scott just chimed in Scott to Blanca, [00:17:00] uh, up in Charlotte. He said, you know, Hey, if, if, uh, if they remind me a lot of myself, uh, they won't work out if two people have the same ideas, then one is not needed.

And that's, I think that's very accurate. Um, you know, you, you don't need to. CEOs, you need a CEO and a COO like, and they have completely different skill sets, right? You don't need to, uh, accountants, you know, you need one accountant and you need a sales director. Like these are different, these are different personality types and skill sets.

Um, and I think when we look at our profession in particular with these cash practices, one of the things that we see is. That it, it is not a huge barrier to entry to jump ship and go do your own thing. So visibly people can say like, Oh, well, I can do this on my own. Right? Like it's how hard could this be?

And I was on a podcast yesterday with a guy that had about a dozen in network practices. And he was specifically bringing this up to me. He was like, how does, how do you [00:18:00] just stop people from. Uh, just going and opening up a practice down the road from you and taking all your clients, you know, and I was like, well, first of all, like, we're not the only industry that has, uh, somewhat of a low ish barrier to entry, right?

Like any, you could look at any personal trainer, any gym, you know, any sort of service industry in general is going to still run that same risk. Even restaurants, man. Like it, I think back to, um, even, uh, like when I first started. Working with the strets, the amount of CrossFit and other gym owners that came out of coaches that went through CrossFit San Francisco is crazy.

Like does it's gotta be in the dozens, uh, of people that have done their own thing, probably in very close proximity to where they're at. And guess what? That Jim still was humming along for years and years. And it's because you got to focus on the service and the product that you're, that you're, um, providing to people [00:19:00] as well as.

If you create an environment that people like being a part of, they'll stick around. Like your culture is so damn important and doing your own thing is lonely and it's not guaranteed and it's really hard. Like that's the other thing that people. Don't realize is just how difficult it is to start anything, any sort of business whatsoever.

The other thing too, is from a business owner standpoint, you need to protect yourself with, uh, you know, legal documents. When you bring anybody on anybody that came on with our practice, we had a, what we consider a pretty narrow non, uh, non compete radius, which it depends on your state, but like, look, if you try to do a 20 mile non compete radius.

You're gonna have a hard time with that meaning somebody would have to go outside of 20 miles To, to work as a physical therapist, that's not going to happen like that's basically moving to another city. So if you can keep a tight radius around where you're at, um, that's very much more enforceable as [00:20:00] well as a non solicit and what you want to make sure people are doing.

And this, this probably will happen to plenty of people that have service based businesses. You know, it's like, Hey, if you leave awesome, like I hope you're successful in everything that you do. Just don't, don't, uh, be a dick and try to take all of our clients and patients that we worked so hard to get in the door along with you as you exit.

And we've had, you know, multiple people leave and. We've had multiple cases where, you know, what, in one case they did the right thing and they just did it on their own. Like, dude, go, go do your own thing. You know, and then another case where they, they try to solicit a ton of clients, which is a, it's a real, you know, unfortunate thing to have to deal with.

Um, but you have to have those things in place so that you are protected as a business owner, because you don't really know what other people's intentions are, especially if they're desperate. Cause that's the other thing like, dude, once they get desperate and they got to make their damn mortgage and pay for groceries.

They're going to do a lot of things they probably wouldn't do in normal circumstances. Yeah,

Yves: I think you're so right. I think a lot of people [00:21:00] think that if they put those things in to, uh, you know, their offers and their documents is going to deter people, but at the same time, maybe it's deterring the right people, you know, and so you've got to protect yourself, right?

You got to protect your, your business. And we're always, it's about abundance mindset. I'm not trying to limit you making a living. I just don't want you to come in here. Make all the relationships I've already made, take all my patients and go the other way. Like we all can agree that's probably not the right thing to do.

And so just having some basic paperwork like that, I think is essential and pretty much, um, expected most of the time. And if somebody has a huge problem with that, it's probably, you know, uh, a red flag, I think. Anyway, so,

Danny: especially a non solicit, like all a non solicit is saying is like, if you leave, just don't solicit the client base that we have when you leave.

Bye. That's not, that's not, it's nothing strange. Uh, you know, and, and those are super enforceable. In fact, I, I, uh, Met a gym owner here [00:22:00] in Atlanta that had basically left another gym and, uh, he 100% solicited a bunch of people to, to move over to his new gym with him. And the gym where he left, they had basically email records and some social media messages of him doing this and they sued him and it ended up, he ended up having to pay like 80, 000 in, um, in damages to this other gym.

And, and it was like, Over something to do with like a, um, uh, nondisclosure, like an NDA for years. Uh, he didn't tell me this until like seven years after it happened. So, you know, but also I told him, I was like, yo, dude, you're an asshole. Like you, you, you're not, you shouldn't do that. Like, that's just not cool.

Like you're, you're working there and then you basically reached out and he was like, yeah, I know, whatever, you know, he was, he was yelling, dude. It was like, it was years and years, uh, after he'd been in business and, uh, He's like, it's a real thing, man. Like these, this isn't just a piece of paper, you know, like if you do the wrong thing and a business finds out about it, like [00:23:00] they got a pretty good case and non solicits in particular are very enforceable.

Yves: Yeah. You know, and we're not talking about patients still have the ability. Let's say they do have a great relationship with that clinician and they leave. Cool. Go over there. Right. Like I get, I'm not going to stop you, but I don't want you is using your one on one hour session. While you're working for us to talk about how amazing this next practice is and sending them emails afterwards and putting them on an email list.

Right. So I just want to make that clear differentiation. Like sometimes people will leave and I think that's fine, but don't go and try to literally sell them, you know, and put them and take some of my data and put it in yours. Right. Like that's, there's a, it's very clear what is and isn't, you know, and so again, abundance mentality, but at the same time, we're also going to protect ourselves.

Danny: Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, if somebody, uh, on, you know, unsolicited decides that they want to go and, and, um, work with that clinician or, or that whatever, a personal trainer, like that's totally different, uh, versus, you know, you're actively trying to engage with people and, or potentially taking data. Like [00:24:00] we've, we've even heard friends of ours that have had people that worked for, you know, their, their companies.

Download their entire customer base and then starts just emailing these people. And like, that is very illegal. Uh, you cannot do those things and you might like. That sounds like common sense, but I think again, what I'm, what I, what I think you have to realize is when people are in a, uh, unknown situation and they feel a lot of stress and they don't know what's going to happen or what they should be doing, they're going to do a lot of stuff that they probably normally wouldn't do out of just fear.

And sometimes ignorance, they don't really know what they should or shouldn't do. So, you know, when you're, when you're hiring people, just make sure. You're hiring for the right role. You're hiring the right personality. And then definitely want to have things in place that protect you as a business owner.

It's like having insurance, you know, it's like having malpractice insurance. Of course you want that. Hopefully never, it never needs to be used, but you need to have that. So the second thing, which kind of goes along with kind of where we're talking about with, um, you know, younger clinicians in particular, they're more transient [00:25:00] is, Okay.

Is if you create a risky pay structure to be like avoid the mistakes to avoid this, the second one, uh, a risky pay structure is going to drive people into more of a, what we consider like a eat what you kill model. And here's what I usually see. And some of you might be guilty of this. And I definitely was early on.

You know, it's hard as hell to build a practice, to build a caseload. And then all of a sudden you get to the point where you can bring somebody else on. And you're like, Oh man, I can like take my foot off the pedal a little bit and get a bit of rest. Uh, cause this other person can help me with these things.

And then you overload your new hire, your new clinician with marketing events. With content that they need to do with, you know, relationships, they need to develop all these things. And all you're doing is you're basically, you're sort of like with a safety net from like a base, probably a really low base salary, you're just incubating them to become an entrepreneur and go do their own thing because you're, you're essentially putting over, let's call it half their salary off of risk off [00:26:00] of, uh, how they actually do in the clinic.

And they have this little safety net. And, and what happens is as they start to learn, these skills are like, I'm taking all this risk. I've built like, I know this person now, you've never met them. This is my relationship. Uh, and then they end up doing the same thing and they end up going in and jumping ship.

And it's because you're setting the stage for them to have poor predictability with their income, which is one of the main reasons why people stay or they leave.

Yves: Yeah. This has been an evolution for us, you know, in our practices, it's been an evolution within PT biz as we're coaching, you know, like in the.

Beginning, there were less cash practices, less competition. It was less of a thing, you know, the barrier to entry to work at made to move was like, you typically had to do like an unpaid version of an internship for like a month or two. And then I gave you a really crappy base salary. And then maybe I give you some bonuses and it still wasn't that good.

And like, That worked in the beginning. Now, no, now the base has got to be pretty solid. [00:27:00] The bonus structure has got to be solid. The ability to move forward. Entrepreneurial is solid. The, uh, the mentorship of clinically and, um, you know. Sales wise, communication wise, all the intangibles is is is huge now, you know, and so we just can't get away with that stuff anymore because which is awesome.

We've got to be better at business. You know, ultimately, it's no longer about just setting up a room in a gym and just making it happen. Now. It's about like, you know, I've got to build. A business that's structured that has SOPs that's got contracts in place. And that's ultimately what we want, right? If we want, uh, cash practices, performance based practices, hybrid practices to be truly a thing of the future, we've got to start building these things, you know, right now.

I don't want to follow. And I don't want to pick on this model either. Like maybe it's. CrossFit. Maybe it's personal training. I don't want to, I don't want to be a small version of that. Like I want to be, uh, really a model that people can trust and a model that people, [00:28:00] uh, want to work for. And that's, you know, exciting and we're kind of, and we're seeing it, you know, and that's ultimately, um, what we've got to do.

Cause the best way to lose someone is to do what you just said is to hire them. Use your first clinician. We see it all the time. I'm going to. scale my schedule back. I'm going to leave them on the loan. I'm not going to mentor them at all. And they're just going to go figure it out. I'm going to say, Hey, here, go find some gyms to go market to like, no, like you need to structure that for them, maintain those relationships, mentor them.

And, uh, that's the way to do it.

Danny: And here's where it gets really hard. And this is why I actually think this first clinical hire is the hardest. And one of the reasons why a lot of people stay small in lifestyle businesses is because you have to do all these things. You have to onboard them. You have to clinically make sure that they're.

They're following a certain model that you want them to, to, to work within. Maybe they need a lot of support on that. You have to help them understand how to present plans of care to people, which is, which is basically light sales [00:29:00] training. Um, you know, they have to understand like how to function within the practice.

All of this, you have to do while you have a maxed out caseload in most cases with that first, uh, provider that comes on. So people think like, Oh, I'm going to hire an employee because I'm time poor. You're about to get far more time poor for a short period of time. Until they pick it up. And then what I see that it's a mistake that's, that's hard to avoid is like, you're so tired and you're so like, you've been working your butt off.

And now this person, like if things aren't going exactly like you want, it's easy to get frustrated. And if you get frustrated with that person that you bring on, like, it's just not a great way to, you know, Develop that relationship. You can't just get frustrated people and tell them that they need to go do more of X, Y, and Z.

And then, you know, like that they're doing a bad job when they don't really know even what they're doing yet. They're still learning all of this. It's a different model. So, you know, I, I think it's more about putting our, you know, big boy, big girl pants on and just saying like, Hey, this is a real business.

I'm going to pay you like [00:30:00] good salary. You're going to have an opportunity to make, make more money potentially with a bonus structure as well. And. Our goal is for you to be an amazing clinician and focus on your patients. And yeah, we might have you get involved in, I, you know, sharing your thoughts and, and live, uh, marketing events we might do, but definitely not going to overwhelm their schedule.

And then we're going to make sure that you're just able to focus on being this amazing clinician. And that means that you have to do a lot of the marketing, continue a lot of do the marketing to get people in the door for them, which is what you should be doing anyway, because they didn't go to school for that.

So if you just shoved them out there and they become the marketer. What do you think is going to happen? Of course, they're going to start to feel overwhelmed. And then they're like, I might as well do some of my own. I'm taking all this risk. I'm doing all these things myself. So you got to really think about, can you set the stage to let them focus on being amazing clinicians?

There's so many people out there that want to work in a cool business and they want to be world class clinicians. They want to help people get amazing results and never have to wonder if that person, Want to get better or not. That's the frustration in a lot of times in network, especially when it comes to like things like work [00:31:00] comp and personal injuries.

So they don't ever have that. And if they can focus on being great and get mentorship and through you or maybe other ways, then I think it'd be happy as hell. And they're gonna stick around a lot longer versus like you forcing them into this sort of like mentorship light for entrepreneurship that you didn't mean to do.

Yeah. Uh, I

Yves: mean, I just love these conversations. Cause it just shows me how big of an opportunity like I, I continue to be very excited about the profession and kind of where it's going, because it's just like, we're realizing that that cash and hybrid practices are just such a big opportunity right now, right?

Like, because these things can grow and scale. And like, we're just having different conversations. I think we were having, you know, even a year ago. And so this is also, I think, for us as business owners, it continues to be typically a misalignment of what we think It's going to be like to what it actually is, you know, we think we can delegate and they're just going to be, uh, they understand how to sell, they understand how to market, you know, and we can [00:32:00] just like, you know, take a backseat to that.

And it is not that like, it's super time intensive. It's super hard. Like, you know, at this point. You know, I've probably hired, uh, fired and like 23rd, you know what I mean? Like lots of people. And like, I'll tell you right now, it is very hard to keep people around and to mentor them and deal with some of the people issues like the hardest thing, you know, that made to move, uh, is dealing with, you know, it's like, you know, at five, six employees, um, Maybe more now, but, um, you know, it's, it's what we talk about.

Mostly. It's like, you know, it's really keeping and retaining those people becomes the biggest thing. And we think, Oh, you know, an hour a week or something. I was like, no, like in the beginning, it could be up to three to five to seven hours a week of really making sure all this goes well, I mean, it'll taper down as they get more independent, but let's set that expectation right now.

The time and energy, like you said, it's going to take to, um. You know, mentor that person and to keep them around and make sure they feel good. Cause I think you did that. Maybe I don't know when it was, but it was like, what was the number one thing to like retain people or [00:33:00] did they want it out of a job?

And a lot of times it was, it was mentorship and it was guidance, you know, that a lot of people are looking for.

Danny: That's exactly right. In fact, you know, I got that. I got that stat from my, uh, my brother in law's wife, who is, she's a director at, um, PWC, which is a huge consulting company. And I think they have, I don't remember like over a hundred thousand employees.

Like they have a ton of stores, massive, uh, public accounting firms. And she told me that when they look at all these metrics and, and they have, dude, they have just the craziest benefits, right? Like I'm talking. Six months of maternity leave. You can do a year sabbatical at a certain point and you can like, they, they just have like all kinds of stuff.

That that is part of retention and I asked her, I was like, well, what's, what's like the thing that keeps people around because her whole job is she's in human resources and her job is talent retention. That's what her, her role is, what she does. And she was like, well, the [00:34:00] number one thing is actually direct one to one mentorship where there.

Direct superior, whoever that is. So if you're a director, it's going to be whoever your partner is. If you're a manager to whoever your director is, it's, it's funny how they structure it, like the military almost. Uh, it's, it's basically just like officer rank with different names as, as they structure it.

And. I thought that was really interesting because I totally could see that. Especially if you have people that are, they're on this upward trajectory, right? Like they want, they know when you, when you work on these organizations, I think you can, you can really learn some interesting things about retaining people here.

And the thing that they dangle in front of everybody is the partner carrot. So in these big consulting firms, partners are These are, uh, most of them are private companies. Some of them are public, but like a PWC is private. So it's actually owned by the partners, uh, of the, of the company. So when you become a partner, you know, you have basically a buy in scenario where you become part of the [00:35:00] company and then your compensation is directly tied to how the company does and they can make.

Over a million dollars a year plus, like they, they can make a ton of money and they have a pension that if they're a partner and they've worked as a partner for a certain number of years, their pension, something crazy, like, I don't know, two or 300, 000 a year for the rest of their life. That being said, a lot of those partners die quite early because of the stress that they're under, uh, after, afterward, but either way, like that's a big, uh, compensation.

So they dangle it in front of these little, you know, consulting associates that come in and. They're 24 years old or whatever, and they're just out of business school. And, and so how do you keep that person motivated to work 80 hours a week and travel every week to become a partner? Well, it has to do with being rated with bonuses, with these title changes, with compensation changes, and then constantly talking about the partnership track.

And that's, I mean, even my brother in law, when he got out of that, that same organization, they dangled in front of him again. They're like, you're a couple of years away from. [00:36:00] From being able to look at partner and he's like, if you made partner partner today, I would still leave. I hate it so much right now.

And so when you look at that, it's like, okay, what can you learn from that? Well, they take, and this really brings me to like the third thing, which would be to give a clear vision of the future for your, for your employees. Anybody that's just like, yeah, you're, we just want you to be a staff PT, be awesome what you do for the next 30 years.

Like, They're going to feel stuck. It's going to feel like it's like a dead end job. There's no change. There's no mobility to that. So thinking about what can you build in, in terms of, you know, titles of different roles you want to have in the company of, of telling them like, Hey, well, we're going to have this role and this role as we get bigger.

Uh, and this is what we want the company to look like. And to really, for them to see what the vision is. It's going to be really important as well as having some sort of conversation with them about what that might look like long term, especially if you have these really entrepreneurial people that may be some sort of partnership role [00:37:00] makes sense for them to have that.

And you've got to have a long runway with things like that, just like they have at these consulting firms. So I think you have to have these conversations about what you want the company to look like. Make that very clear for them about what their roles are going to be and where they can, you know, have growth and mentorship and meet with them on a regular basis to talk about where they're at, what they're working on, what things you need to improve, what they're doing well, and make sure that you're doing that on an ongoing basis and not just leaving people alone and assuming, Oh, they like what they do.

They're going to be here forever because they're not. They're thinking about something else. I guarantee you. Yeah. It's a,

Yves: it's a Cardinals mistake and we hear it, we hear it in all kinds of business, you know, whether it's, you know, insurance cash hybrid, um, other verticals, you know, other areas is. We just don't, we don't do that.

We really think people want to be left alone. But I think that's a total cop out, right? The total cop out of not wanting to put the time and energy and probably having some uncomfortable conversations typically, you know, with your employees about, you know, where they're going, where they, where they want to be.

And what does that look like? You know, and so, [00:38:00] and they're, they're ultimately, um, you know, Difficult conversations, but from my experience, getting through those conversations early and often will help you in the long term, just like anything else, right? Like, I need to work out. Okay, cool. If I don't work out, you know, um, now I'm going to feel like crap.

And if I, like, put in the work now, I'm going to feel better. Long term, obviously, like, it's easier not to do something. So, uh, I think it's just, yeah, it's about kind of. Pushing into that, um, as, as, as much as possible and like, step up and be a leader, you know? And, um, you know, I think a lot of people are like, what's the key to leadership?

And I'm just like, well, probably just doing it, you know, probably just like getting there and doing it. And the more experience you have, uh, the better, and you're probably going to eat shit a couple of times. Like we did, you know, uh, you did like, there's nobody, I don't know that hasn't messed that up, you know, but it's ultimately the person who's willing to kind of do that again and again, that eventually figures it out.

Danny: Yeah, I totally agree. We get this loaded question about leadership, right? You're like, [00:39:00] can you give me a leadership checklist? I cannot. I can't do it. It's such a, it's such a three dimensional chess game of what to do, what to say, what not to say, and how to make sure that you're being effective leader.

What I can say is. People that do not feel like they're strong leadership in the direction that they're trying to move the company, they will start to look for other things they're going to start to look for other options and they're not going to be as willing to trust the process. I think that's the hard part with people that don't feel like they are good leaders, but in order to become a good leader, I think you have to get very clear on where you're trying to take your company.

Like if you don't know, if you don't have a really concrete idea, if you can't. If you can't forecast 10 years in the future of like what this is going to look like, what they want to stick around for what they want to be a part of, like, it's exciting to be a part of the growth of those things. What's not exciting is to just like, just have a job, especially a job in a very small practice that doesn't seem [00:40:00] nearly as.

consistent or likely to pay you, you know, as a big clinic would or big hospital. And we've seen people do that where they will leave a cash practice as a staff PT and they'll go work at the VA hospital or they'll go to a big hospital. And it's because they feel more secure in the likelihood that they're going to get, uh, that they're going to get paid.

Um, See, Jose asked us, uh, you know, how do you implement bonuses and compensation in a clinic setting? And can you provide some examples? So, um, so, yeah, there's lots of ways to do it. Um, the easiest way, you know, we, we, we see people will create a bonus based off of a percentage of. Revenue earned. We see people that will do a bonus based off of visits.

Um, I think that's, uh, maybe the easiest one. That's the one that, that we have done for a really long time. Um, I like their, their base salary to be, you know, relatively, uh, the majority of compensation, right? So let's say. You [00:41:00] got to kind of back into what you want people to make, and that's based off your area and comparables in terms of what people are making in those settings.

But let's say somebody is making 84, 000. A year to make my math easy and you say, okay, well, we're gonna have a base salary of 72, 000 would be 6, 000 a month. And then they have certain bonus metrics of like visits that they've seen. And if they're above those, and they get an additional 1, 000 a month in a bonus.

Um, and that gets them to where they want to be. So you could do it that way. You could use straight salary to like, I don't think anything's wrong with that. Especially if you have an established clinician, you can move straight into a, a, a, a compensation structure. That's. That's 100% um, salary. What you don't want to do if you're trying to back into 85, 000 is do like, you know, a 3, 000 base salary and then another, you know, whatever, four or 5, 000 that they can make with bonuses.

Like, I don't think that's a good idea. That's a, that's really farly it's, it's far too skewed on the bonus [00:42:00] side and not enough on the basic comp. Anything you want to. Yeah,

Yves: I mean, um, uh, what I've been seeing is you can look in your general area and see what a clinician or whoever you're going to hire is typically making, right?

And so from what I've seen, the wiggle room, typically if you're, um, kind of in the performance space realm, you can probably go anywhere from like 10, 15, maybe max 20% kind of below that as the base, but then give them the ability if they really hit some amazing metrics to actually go past that, you know, and I think that's a good kind of starting place to be.

Um, if you kind of want to look at it from that angle, the other way, and you talk about this all the time, and you're better at these numbers than I am, is just looking at what they can actually generate and then looking at that labor efficiency ratio and kind of being at that 33%. So, you can also kind of use that.

So, if you know, your numbers and KPIs pretty well, be like. You know, 200 visit. They usually get up to 30 visits. This is what is a year. I can kind of back into some of those, um, numbers as well and then create bonus structures of what you think they can actually see because we [00:43:00] do see some variability.

Some cash practices. They want people to be at 30 to 32 patients were kind of more in the 25 to 28 range is kind of what we see. So you also got to, um, consider some of that as well as kind of what your expectations are from visit scene and, you know, the other things in the business as well. And this is again, just for like, let's call it a generic Well, staff, clinician, you know, that's not a clinical manager or

Danny: anything like that.

Yeah. And, uh, one thing to for, um, Jose bringing up, uh, in the subcontractor, uh, world, you know, if you're doing like a, you say 50, 50 split with, with contractors, pretty solid. Um, you know, it's pretty good range. Sometimes people are above that, uh, in a, in a split. Um, some people are, are below 50, 50 is pretty straightforward.

One thing I would tell. Anybody that's listening to this, that's really, uh, using a lot of contractors is make sure that you understand your employment law around contractors, because that is a [00:44:00] real, um, that can be a real gray area depending on if those people are. If you're paying them as a contractor because they want to be a contractor and they're, they're used to that because of like home health and, uh, maybe they're, you know, they're, they've been doing that for like PRN stuff or whatever, you have to be very careful with the laws around subcontractors, not, not to go off topic too much of this, but this is actually a real problem that we've seen with certain practices that we've worked with.

And even in talking to employment law, uh, specialists, you know, There's there's some significant things you have to keep in mind. Like if they're coming to staff meetings, uh, you have to compensation. You have to compensate them for that. Um, otherwise, they're basically considered an employee. They're technically not supposed to wear your logo, uh, on on their anything.

Otherwise, that's a sign that there might be employed. They can't have a, uh, an actual, uh, email address that has your passport. Um, that has your business in it. They can't, they need to manage their own [00:45:00] schedule. So you can't have a central person managing their schedules either. And this is something that I know that the healthcare and personal training world are notorious for actually like making everybody, um, contractors because it helps save on certain taxes.

Uh, but the fines for that are quite high as well. So just keep that in mind. Cause that's something that, you know, recently, uh, we've seen some problems with that. And. Uh, we've seen that, you know, it might be worth it just to, to move this people over. If they're truly contractors, then cool. Just, we see a lot of people that say people are contractors that are actually employees.

And, uh, it may not seem like a big deal until, you know, the IRS comes knocking and they're like, what's up with this? Where's your payroll taxes? Cause this person ensures how it looks like an employee to me. And that's starting to become more and more of a, um, uh, litigated issue. They're finding much, much more of that because it's low hanging fruit for tax purposes.

Yves: Yeah, um, and I'll put my biases up front right now. Like, I am totally biased to not having contractors and 1099. It's like, I [00:46:00] think if you want to build a truly scalable business, kind of go back to what we're talking about. If they want to believe in the vision and kind of what we're doing and doing staff meetings, coming to retreats, it's going to be very difficult for that to be a contractor.

Right? And so, you know, there's certain times contractors make sense, right? Like, let's just say, um, uh, You know, uh, physical therapist and I got a massage therapist that I send people to, you know, they're going to be a contractor and I just send them new patients and say, hey, go see blah, blah, blah. And they're kind of renting a room.

Cool. That kind of makes sense. Right? But if they're integrated into my model, we're kind of all working together. I'm probably going to try to hire that person, you know, full time. So, you know, I understand why people do it. Right? It's it's it's easier potentially logistically and financially. But at the same time, you know, what are your.

Overall goals for your business. And we've unfortunately seen it. We've seen people who've kind of gone that 50 50 model and once at a point they get to a seven figure model, it starts to break a little bit because you know, it just, uh, what you want to do long term and get everyone on the same page gets, they can't even come to staff meetings technically, right.

Or you have to [00:47:00] pay them for that. So, um, again, it's my biases. I. Bet it works in some models. Maybe somebody could be like, well, what about all these things? But I'll just tell you for me, you know, and I've tried, I've tried it. I just rather have somebody be fully integrated to the team and be salaried. And, and that's why we looked at salary bonus.

Cause I think it's kind of the happy medium of a contractor. So if you got the base, but you also have the ability to make more money. So I just like that

Danny: version better. Yeah. What is a, uh, part time people equals part time attention. You know, we we've seen this now with like, I mean. Anybody that I've ever brought on part time has not stayed in a, in a cash practice.

Um, anybody that, I mean, anybody that works with us, that's part time, I, I, we never have as much, um, efficiency, just like quality of work. As we do out of somebody that's full time, that's like really bought into the culture, it's it's the culture that makes such a big difference. And this is the thing that I actually think we have such a huge advantage with is, you know, most, most of the physical therapy clinics that I've been in [00:48:00] are not places that I want to hang out for after work.

Okay, like I don't want to be there. Uh, And many of you probably know what I'm talking about, and you know, especially like corporate owned higher, um, you know, like higher volume clinics, you're not, you're not sticking around. So I think that you got to keep in mind your culture is one of the key reasons of why someone is going to stay.

And it's probably the most fun part about the whole business, honestly, you know, you being able to take your staff out to do a, you know, whatever, a staff meeting at a brewery or to take Friday afternoon and go. Uh, do some activity together, go drop in and do a team workout or something like that. Or, um, you know, host a, uh, have a, have a Christmas dinner and give them a bonus.

And like, like shit like that. Like it's such a fun part of owning the business. And, you know, you gotta be intentional about your culture and people will want to stick around for things like that. Far more than a lot of the other things that we think that they want. Culture is more important than healthcare.

I'll tell you that much. You know, people want health [00:49:00] insurance. There's no doubt. But like, dude. You could have health insurance in a shit culture and they're going to leave. Uh, that that's what you got to keep in mind. Um, so I look like got one other question here. What's your equation for setting a base salary?

I mean, it's very dependent on where you're at. For me, I like, I like base salary to make up about. 80% of compensation somewhere in that range, um, and then for them to have the opportunity to make another 20% off of bonuses, but it depends on your area because like, you know, we've had people that are in, let's call it like central Texas and cost of living as far lower.

And then, you know, they can have a base salary of maybe 6, 000 a month and have the opportunity for somebody to make in the low seventies. And that's like. Good to go for where they're at. And then you go somewhere like DC and all of a sudden that base salary might end up being like 95, 000, um, because of cost of living and where the clinic is located.

And, and, um, and, and it's just very, [00:50:00] very location dependent. So, you know, one of the things you can do is just see what other providers are making in your area, get a better idea of like what the compensation looks like, what jobs are being offered. Um, cause you at this point we have to be competitive with, you know, with full on.

Practices and hospitals, and then you may not be able to pay exactly, uh, the same amount, but if you can get close, you have a really competitive chance to get good quality, um, folks and people take less money to have a better quality of life as well. Keep that in mind. So if you can be like, you know, flexible with them and give them better opportunity to have say over when they're doing things and how much they're doing and, uh, decrease the burden of work that they have outside of the clinic.

I mean, what's that worth, right? Cause it's like, they're going to be making. Maybe less overall, but a heck of a lot more per hour. You

Yves: know, I think maybe that's where it gets difficult too, right? Like, let's say you're got some candidates or maybe you're even transitioning people from contractors to base salaries.

Like it sometimes would be a difficult sell, but you've got to kind of sell it. And this is, I think where the culture, [00:51:00] the vision, you know, like. You know, uh, my favorite times where we would do staff meetings and play spike ball, like, you know, some of the best conversations were around, like how we're going to improve, you know, the Charleston community and how, you know, created mission, vision and values.

Like, that's the kind of stuff that I think will get people bought more into long term and compensation will always matter, but maybe not matter as much. So you got to do a good job of kind of like, you know, selling it and being consistent and providing that structure for people, but also letting them know, like, here's your.

dangling the carrot. Here's your upper trajectory. And here's the vision. You got to kind of put all those things together. And like I said, it's, you know, it's hard, you know, like just, you know, there are people who want to be hands off and, um, that's fine. But I think being hands on is going to be the best route to go long term.

Danny: Agreed. And if you struggle with the vision side of things, there's a book that I really like. It's called Vivid Vision. I think it's Cameron Herald, uh, is, is, uh, the guy's name that, that wrote it. And, um, it's a great, it's [00:52:00] basically like one big vision exercise for what you want your life to look like. Um, and, you know, it's, it's actually really hard to go through and do all that, but, you know, if you can get really clear on that and, and, and not just a little.

Vision, but like a big vision for what your, your team is going to look like, like, that's the key. And for me, like, I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and with, with PT business, like, yeah, we help people on the business side. But what I really care about is like, I know what our people do with patients.

And I know just how unhealthy of a population we have now. And you have these. Smart people to get a chance to spend time with with patients and impart literal, like life changing information, life changing skills that then pays forward to their family and their friends and they see that and all of a sudden, like the culture of their ecosystem becomes healthier.

Like, that's really more important to me than anything. That's, you know, the. The track where I went clinically that I did when I got out of the military to teach for the stirrets, it was to teach this stuff. And then all of [00:53:00] a sudden, it's like, well, how do we get more of these people to work with the right clinicians?

Well, they have to be better business owners and they have to hire more of these people. And now we have this net effect where in the last 12 months, the people we work with in our mastermind saw 60, 000 new people in the last 12 months. That's 60, 000 new people to get a chance to improve their health long term with really, really.

Quality providers, you know, we want to help hundreds of thousands of people per year. And that means that we need to work with more folks to help them hire more people and grow their businesses. So, you know, what's the big, why, what's that? You got to be very clear on that. For why people are going to want to say, yeah, I want to, I want to hook, you know, hook up to this company.

I want to ride with them and do my thing with them because. There's a lot of options out there and more and more people are leaving our profession. So you're going to have harder and harder time finding people, retaining people. So you got to be very clear on where you're trying to go. Otherwise, you're not going to be able to keep people for very long.

Yves: Yeah. Yeah. The other book I really liked was, uh, it starts with why with Simon Sinek, one of my favorite ones. And it really allowed me to clarify it in my brain and then be able to disseminate that information to employees. Cause [00:54:00] that's sometimes the challenge, you know, like you've got to go do your own work and then you've got to figure it out how to, uh, Bring it down the pipeline, which can be

Danny: a huge challenge.

Yeah. Um, well, cool. So, Hey, in summary, we got number one, hiring somebody that's just like you. That can work, but you got to make sure you're doing it intentionally because you're trying to basically put somebody in a role that, that you've been functioning in, uh, number two, don't make their pay structure super risky.

So you, as the business owner have to offset risk for them. You're paying them, even though they may not be making that much money. Uh, there may be cost negative. In fact, like some of the bigger in network practices that I've had a chance to, uh, talk to and, and do some consulting with, they might run three, four months negative before somebody is, is positive on the, uh, the patient side.

They take that risk, right? I mean, that's just the way that's the way it is. Um, and then not giving them a clear vision for the future. And, uh, and maybe you don't have one for yourself yet. And if you don't, then definitely go work on that because They're going to want to see where [00:55:00] they're going. They don't want to just be in a job that doesn't change ever.

They don't ever get any difference of a job or role. And, uh, you're going to have to map that out for them because, and continue to remind them of that, because if you don't, they're definitely going to look, try to go somewhere else.

Yves: Yeah, 100%. I think you, you covered it. I mean, this is, it's a challenging spot to be in, but it's also one of the exciting parts, right?

Getting to the point where you can truly scare yourself and, um, finding the right people. Um, it can be amazing. So, uh, super excited to, uh, you know, continue to work with, uh, you know, performance based businesses and just. See how far we

Danny: could take this thing. A hundred percent. All right, guys. Hey, thank you so much for, uh, asking questions today for hanging out with us.

If you're listening on the podcast, thanks for, for listening as always. And we will, uh, we'll catch you next week.

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