E224 | 3 Big Takeaways From Our Staff Retreat

On today's episode, I wanted to talk about why it is so important to me and our business to enjoy a staff retreat. 

Why do we spend a lot of money and give up patient volume to get away for a couple of days?  We do this because not only can we focus on our business goals, but more importantly it helps us improve the culture of our business.

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Episode Transcription:

Danny: What's going on, guys. Doc Danny here, with the PT Entrepreneur Podcast, and it's Tuesday. I appreciate you tuning in again, catching up on your business knowledge. I've got some cool stuff to share with you guys today. We just had our staff retreat last week, and I want to talk about the three big takeaways that I have from the time that I got to spend.

You know, with our staff outside of. The office in a cool location, doing some entertaining stuff and give you an idea why, you know, an event like this, which is, just, it's a financial, but also time costs for our whole company. Why it's so important and why we do it every, every year. So, let me get, let me give a little context to this.

So our staff, we took everyone out to a, a, a place called Serenbe B, and. For those of you that are in Atlanta, maybe you, you've heard of this place. If you, if you're not in Atlanta, you should check this place out. It's, it's really, interesting. So basically, from the story that I heard about how it started, there was a guy that was a successful, a restaurant, or in Atlanta.

And he used to, and he bought a farm south of Atlanta where he had a couple of acres, and it was like an old farmhouse that he, renovated. And then he liked going there so much that he bought 1500 acres of land all around this farmhouse and decided that he wanted to build this.

Upscale sort of retreat for people. That's kind of like a farm and then healthy living. And there's, you know, there's, there are animals, and there's, you know, all kinds of, you know, a questionary in events and I'm just a ton of activities out there. They have like a Playhouse and multiple restaurants and coffee shops and artists that are local there and musicians.

And it's just like, and I don't know, the best way to describe it, it's, it's kind of a hodgepodge of, I guess more people, more cultured than I am, and a more wealthy than I am. And, and, but also mixed with a farm. So imagine this, I guess the best way to describe it is as if Joanna Gaines had 1500 acres and an unlimited development budget.

She would build this place. So take a look at it. It's exciting, but what we did was, you can do corporate events out there. So we had like a small office space that we had for our conference rates is, I should say for our staff. So we've got out there on Thursday morning, and we went over a bunch of stuff for our fourth quarter, in particular, a reactivation campaign that we do every year.

And, and I'm getting all that stuff teed up, all day Thursday until about, I guess it was probably around like four o'clock. And then we went over to where we were staying, and it was cool cause it was renovated. A renovated, like a guest house, I guess, that is connected to the pull area.

And there wasn't anybody out there. Cause it's Thursday, it's like the middle of the, you know, week. Not in the summer. So it was just us. We had this whole like the pool area and like a hot tub and guest house all to ourselves. And, yeah, man, we hung out in the pool. We got a chance to just, just chill out for a while.

And, then we took everybody to this, this—private cooking lesson, which was, which was the highlight of our trip. Honestly, I've never done anything like this, but the guy that we had was excellent. His name was Patty, a chef out there, and he taught us how to make some great stuff. The food was terrific.

They grow all the produce that they have at the restaurants or most of the products they have at the restaurants, on the farm. So they had all that. They had like some, you know, grass-fed, be fit. He had, and we like finished it in a cast-iron skillet. Like, I don't even know much about that's up before this, but it was awesome.

I feel like I need to get soupy after this if you guys are in cooking, you probably know what I'm talking about. But it was great. And more than anything, what was remarkable about it was we had an opportunity. Yeah, we did structured work, and we got a chance to. To delve into some things that we needed to, but more than anything, we got a chance to take a step back.

We got a chance to plan things together, get on the same page together, and spend some fun time together. And one of them, one of the things that, that is so great about, yeah, well, the fact that we've been able to start a business is we get to pick who we want to employ. And. And it's based on what's a cultural fit for us.

And I'll get into some of this with my three big takeaways, but everybody that we work with, there's a lot of shared values that we have. They're funny, you know, they're just good people and, no, just being able to interact with them and do something with them that maybe they wouldn't, do for themselves.

It's kind of a big sort of splurge thing. If you were to do that, you know, by herself. Just the event alone was a couple of thousand dollars for us to everybody out there for. You know, only the cost of like hotels and the food and the conference room and not to include the lost revenue from not having patient volume.

And, and, and well, that's fine with us because it's so essential for us to be on the same page and have, you know, a, a cohesive team that feels like we, you know, there, there, there's more to it than just revenue. And there, there is like, I think you can't fake that, and it's something that people know one way or other.

Like if it's just all about. Business, business, business, business, you're not going to keep people around very, very well. And, and, you know, they don't feel like they're a part of anything. And when you get a chance to interact with people and just, you know, have fun and, and be able to, yeah.

Share some fresh experiences. And that's what, I think, is one of the coolest parts about. Us being able to employ other people and grow our business, past just me, you know, and Ashley. And, so anyway, I'm going to get into these three big takeaways that we had. Or that I had, I guess you'd say from, from this, from this live event that we did with this, this a retreat.

So, number one is culture cannot be faked. So, I hear a lot of companies talk about like, literature, religion, culture, and culture. Is this sort of. I guess I see some kind of like a vague thing where people can say they have a unique culture, but when you step into a business, and you see how people interact with each other, you can tell if they have a unique culture or not.

And culture to me is just, you know, how, how well, people live the values, of what was defined by the founders. Because once you, once you start bringing other people on. If, if they don't have a compass, of what is vital to that company, they don't know the best way to make decisions, and decisions have to be made based on.

Core values in the company that defines the culture. And this is a tough thing to do early on. You know, we have redone our core values, twice. And the first time we did it, it was just Ashley and me. And you know, we had a, we had a, I guess we had a firm idea of like what we wanted our company to be, but we didn't really.

We didn't know until we brought other people into the mix. And, and we had our staff, sit down and redo them with us. So, you know, we felt like we're on the same page with them. And it's something that's it just has to be lived every day. It has to be a part of what you guys do, has to be a part of how you make decisions.

It has to be a part of things that you do when you're not at work. You know, like, like for us, a big one for us is, is to deliver more than expected, you know? And. That means a lot of things. That's very vague, right. But, but like going above and beyond and even owning up to mistakes. You know, I made a mistake with a, a patient recently where I used his name and something that I shouldn't have, and, and, he was kind of upset about it.

And I called him as soon as I could. I apologize. You know I, I didn't try to act like it was a miscommunication. It's 100% my fault. You see, I, I. I called him as soon as he emailed me. And I think for a lot of people, they avoid the discomfort of something like that. And for sure, don't get me wrong, it is uncomfortable to have to admit that you're wrong about something truly, you know, being corrupt and be sorry about that.

And, but people, people understand that that people make mistakes sometimes. And if you own up to it. The likelihood of that rotting and becoming a bigger problem goes away. It's also just the right thing to do, frankly. And I think that's probably the most important thing, is what do you do when people aren't looking?

Do you know? And culture for us is leading from the front. You see, it's making decisions based on the things that we find. Vital that we tell other people to do to help with the alleviation of pain and getting back to activities and workouts and functional living that they want to be able to do.

And what I mean by this is look, I've, I've kind of gotten in trouble for saying stuff like this in the past about our profession and, the health decisions that people make, but I feel like, PTs, clinicians in general, like we should be leading from the front. I don't think anybody will disagree with me on this.

It's just a matter of anybody. Not everybody's willing to do this. And it frustrates me. But I do get it right. I mean, people, there's a lot of reasons why people. Have poor health decisions, and I'm by no means a, you know, a Saint when it comes to this stuff. Like do, I took my daughter to McDonald's the other day because she begged me for a, a happy meal, and it's something we occasionally do.

That's okay—just a fun thing. Jacqueline and Ashley had gone somewhere else and every time that they do this, which is kind of rare. We go to McDonald's, and it's like a little treat thing. And I'll tell you what, I felt like dog shit afterward. I had a headache. Maggie's laughing while she's eating these chicken nuggets.

And I knew I was like, dad, and it's going to suck. You know, in terms of how I, how I feel, and, and it is what it is. It's a rare thing that we do, you know, like, we don't eat dessert every night. I hardly drink. Like, these are just things that's, We don't do much. Right. We try to eat healthy 80% of the time.

The other 20% of the time, we like Damascus, and we exercise regularly, but not to a point where it becomes our life. Right? Like just finding balance in that is, I think, what is essential. It doesn't have to be anything crazy, but in our profession, like. The idea that you can just be unhealthy yourself and then tell people to make these health decisions that habitually are hard to change is very hypocritical and not something that we allow within our organization.

You cannot do that if we. Feel like you are just, you know, not leading from the front. You're, you're, you're standing there telling people to do things that you're not willing to do yourself. You're not going to last within ours, our company. It's just not a core tenant of ours. And this idea of, leading from the front, it's something that I picked up when I was in, in the army and, and I feel like Ashley and me, Oh, we have to do it even more so because we have staff that it looks to us as well.

Right? Like, if I'm not willing to. I went up to a mistake or went the extra mile for a patient. What makes you w what makes them think they should do that? Right. Like, I, I just feel that it has to be something that you do both and how you interact with people in your business. And, personally, because.

In particular, when we asked people to make these difficult decisions in terms of eating better, moving more, you know, sleeping more amazing, stress better, and we are wrong about it ourselves. We feel that internally it is. It's not authentic. People can tell as well, right? And I'm like, and I would get this. Even when I teach for mobility, why are we talking to people about squatting?

Do I weigh a buck 75? Am I fucking tall and skinny? Right? And, and I've multiple times had people like to ask me, why are you, are you a strength coach? It's like, well, what does that mean? Right? I mean, I have a ton of education in that. I've worked with a lot of people in a strength conditioning, a setting, you know, between military, special operations groups, professional teams, division one organizations.

Yeah, I, I for sure have there—the pedigree to do that. Now, am I, do I look like a college strength coach that's going to be deadlifting 600 pounds? No, not at all. And the first thing I do, whenever I teach a course with a bunch of strength coaches that are looking at me that way is I, the first thing I do is I bring that up and, and I, I diffused the situation right away.

I'll say, listen, guys, as I get it. I'm not going to come in here and deadlift 600 pounds. Like don't expect that to happen and, and position myself in a way where I, I'm just, I'm not trying to post or posture in a way where I need to do that, but I know some things that can help these people get better results with their athletes, you know, and ways to get better compliance and buy-in.

Organization of things and looking at something that may be causing, you know, injuries based on the methodology that we teach, that I learned from, you know, Kelly's. So, you know, when you find yourself in a position like that, you know, you have to just be okay with that, with owning up to that, you know, and.

And also I do train, right? But like, just, just the way that I'm trained, I'm not trying to be 200 pounds anymore. Like I was in the military. I felt like dog shit, and I was eating all the time. It's like a part-time job, not, not my thing. And, and so I think you don't have to be, you know, go looking like you're going to the CrossFit games to have credibility with people.

But if you are honestly just not taking care of yourself, and then you turn around and ask people to do the same thing, you know, in terms of. You are making these difficult decisions. It just uses loses so much credibility. And I think it's a huge issue in healthcare in general. You know, tell me, we'll stop smoking and then over your break, you're out in the parking lot smoking.

I mean we can, I think we can all agree that that's not a good thing whether you like it or not, or whether you dislike what I have to say. And some people have, you know, diseases, they have pathology. I'm not talking about that. That is a small sliver of the people out there that are just not taking care of themselves and then telling other people too, you know, to make better decisions if you're not doing yourself, you have no right to tell anybody else to do the same thing.

And this is a big part of our culture. Like we. All train. You know, we all are healthy. You watch us eat lunch, and it's, I mean, it's all healthy food for the most part, unless it's like something random that we're bringing in on a, you know, on a day where we have like a staff meeting, but even still, it's like Chipotle or something like that, you know?

So I think that, or your culture has to be, you know, leading from the front and being an example, because if you're not, people will not take you, credibly. So that's number one. Number two. Fun is just as important as hard work. So this is, this is something that, when I was in the army, they. They used to, you know, make us do all kinds of events and, you know, whether it's like Halen, farewell dinners or balls or, you know, going to, you know, the winter Wonderland ball or, or, you know, whatever other thing was like organized fun that everybody was supposed to do, but it never was enjoyable.

Like, it just was always kind of lame, and nobody wanted to go to these things. And it was sort of, and it's just some kind of weird. Like you don't want to have a great, a time or like your show, you're like a personal side to your business, you know, colleagues within that context. I'm in the military in particular, and I never really enjoyed any of those things that we had to do.

It was like, you know, mandatory fun. Is what we would call it. But I mean, for us, we always wanted to be able to have fun and have our company support, are, you know, us and our staff getting to do cool shit together and go into a place like this, you know,  being able even to take our team, you know, to a dinner like we did, was, it was a lot of fun.

It had nothing to do with bins. We didn't talk about business. At all. It was just like some random ass conversations the whole time about like fantasy football and about this, you know, talking to this chef about how the hell he got, how we got from Syracuse, New York down to Palmetto, Georgia, you know, and teaching cooking classes.

It was, it was a blast. And that cohesion we get from us. Being able to know each other on a deeper level in our company, I think, is incredibly essential in any small business, I believe, to be very, very important because. They're not a number. This isn't just like when I was in the military, and I was a one-off, who knows how many captains, right?

I was one of who knows how many physical therapists, you know, even a smaller niche w with, within that, and. For small businesses, mainly service-based businesses like ours. Those people, you work together in a very close manner, and it's super important to know more about those people then you would in, in a government environment, you want to know their backstories too, right?

Like, you know, just, we learned something about our office manager that she worked on a blueberry co-op or some crap, like it was called blueberry fields, some co-op up in like New Hampshire. And, we're all laughing about it cause it makes sense. She looks like somebody that would have worked at a co-op.

She, she, you know, she did some fun stuff. Exciting stuff, before starting working. You know, w with us, and it's just funny to hear some of the things that, you know, Claire has, done previously. And it just, you know, makes her more well rounded. It makes us like her more, makes us, you know, just want to be, more of a part of her upper life and, and, and, and same with us and for them to learn things about us, you know, that are just sort of, No, it just deeper friendships that we're developing with staff. I don't really, and I don't look at it like employees. I'll never say that somebody works for me. I think that's just a terrible way to phrase it. You know, we work together, we're on the same team. You see, we all have different roles, and some of us have taken on more risks than others, and that just puts us in different places.

But we all work together, and we have to be able to help each other out. And the more that we know, like, and trust each other, the more likely it is that we're willing to go the extra mile to actually. Help each other out and, and when we look at what's best for our patients, we have to pull it back to this, right?

Like, because I told them at us, at our staff retreat, I said, look. I don't pay you. You know, like I'm not the one that pays your salaries and your benefits. Like our patients are the ones that pay your salary and your interests. They're the ones that are the reason why you have a job here. You know, and, and why we have a company and let's not forget how important that is.

And when somebody reaches out to us for help and they email us, you know, about. Or that they're doing an exercise correctly. We can either think to ourselves, Oh man, this guy's a pain in my ass because he's asking questions. Or we can say, how fucking fortunate are we that we have people that we work with that are willing to reach out to us because they want to make sure they're doing some homework exercises, right?

I mean, how many of you work at clinics where there are people that don't do anything you say. I remember being in the military asking people to demonstrate their homework exercises and half the time they camp with some bastardized version of some shit that I never showed them and then finally fessed up with the fact that they didn't do anything that I told them to.

A lack of compliance in an environment like that where there's no skin in the game, it's a socialized medical system not paying anything, deficiency, lack of compliance is a terrible problem. It's so hard to get people motivated to take care of themselves in that context. And. For us to complain about somebody reaching out to us.

You know, like some of our patients will take a video of themselves, send it to us, and make sure, like they want us to break it down and break down their form, and they want to see if they're doing it right. I mean, that is the dream. That's the dream clients, the people that you know are going to get better because they're actively investing in there results with time and with energy and focusing on the right things and changing the wrong things.

And, and that's what we have to look at. You know, the way that we have to look at this and, and you know, as we work together, as we develop better cohesion with our team, it's all so that we can help get better results for the people that pay us, for the people that allow us to have a company. And when you look at it that way, it changes a lot.

It changes a ton in terms of how you feel when somebody asks for help. You know, versus looking at it as a burden. We look at it as, man, how fortunate are we to put ourselves in a position that many other providers would kill for, to have people as invested in the result that we want them to get at, as, as, as we are.

And I think that's a very, very rare thing. All right? Number three, we have to continually remind people what bus they're on and where it's going. And you know what I mean by this is. It's our staff. It's not, and it's not patients. It's, it's, I guess you could say that in a different context, but for our staff to know and have clear communication about what we're doing with our company, where they fit, where we see them going is very, very important.

Because you know, this idea of, okay, what bus am I getting on and where's it going? Do I want to be on this bus, and do I want to go to this place, or do I want to be on a different bus, and I want to go to a separate, Mmm, no home. This isn't the right place for me, or it's not going in the right spot. And clear communication is incredibly important because if you don't have clear ongoing communication and almost to an exhaustive level because.

People are busy. People forget people. We'll fill in the gaps with what they think is happening, not what is the intentions of, you know, the people that run the company usually. And when people have, you know, clear communication and they know what the mission is and they're a part of something bigger than them, you know, they're a part of something.

That is a driving factor, a cause that they want to associate themselves with. They will work very hard towards that because it means more than money. It means more than benefits. It means more than a lot of things and for us with our company, what we're trying to do. It's proved that this performance P T model does not have to be dependent on insurance, can scale past just one provider to provide unusual jobs for our peers, and break the mold on that so that we can then teach other people how to do the same thing.

And instead of students coming out of school and having one choice. You know, or a couple of options. I say none are any good. Go work for a high volume clinic and get pay like crap. Take a home health job and help people get off bedside commodes and make decent money. Take a travel PT job and move from one little Podunk town to another where you're there for a reason because nobody else wants to be there and no other, nobody else wants to be in this position and make decent money there as well.

I don't know about you guys, but I didn't go to school for any of those options. I went to school to be an autonomous provider that could help people solve complex problems and use my skill set as a strength and conditioning background that just happened to go back to PT school to learn how to affect pain, but solve longterm problems through effective utilization of movement, both strength and mobility control, motor control, whatever you want to call it.

Through basic training, conditioning principles to help them move well, be active for life, and get back to the things that they love, you know, and enjoying their time actively while they're here. Dad is what we want, and we want to be able to show that it is possible and sort of change that option. Instead, I only have these three shitty options.

Now all of a sudden, it's like I have this other option. I can either align myself with a clinic that's doing this, that's grown to a point where they can bring me on, or I can figure out how to do this on my own, you know, and have my private practice if that's what you want to do. Not everybody fits into that.

Hello? I can tell you as a business owner. It's as there are certain days. I wish I didn't have a business for sure. The stress is real, doesn't fucking go away. You solve problems, and then more significant problems up appear because you've later grown, and you learn how to deal with them better. But I'm telling you, it's not for everybody.

It's not an easy path. It's the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. And for people to think that they can just throw a sign up on a door and all of a sudden they have a business and practice is functional, doesn't work that way. And those of you that are doing it right now, you know what I'm talking about.

And no amount of listening to me can ever describe to you what that feels like. And the stress associated with that sometimes is just something that's many people. Do you not want and they fold under, you know, I, there's no other way for me, I'm chronically unemployable. I'll be, I'll be an entrepreneur and self-employed for the rest of my life.

There's no, no doubt there's no, I would be a shitty employee. I would get fired quickly and. For us as we drive towards trying to show that this works. And we have, and in many ways we've shown that we've grown past ourselves multiple times, employed people that have high positions and we want to make them even better.

And for our staff to know this is the goal. You're a part of this, and you're, you have a direct stake in the changing of our profession. For many of our peers who are in school right now are younger practitioners that don't want those other options. Date. They know where they're going, they know what they're a part of, and it's big.

It's important. We must be able to prove and to, to show and to, and to share. With, with how this works, you know, and, and help our peers have better options going forward. I'll give you a perfect example. I was, I was at a school recently. I got asked to come in as a, does a guest for a Q and a, at this, this a private school that is primarily focused on entrepreneurship. Still, they have like a healthy, kind of civic, I guess like the political kind of, section to it as well type of learning about public service and, but it's, but it's slowly entrepreneur based. And, so they had me come in and do a Q and a, and it was a couple of other people and me. And one of the ladies there, she works for John Lewis, who's a Congressman here, in Georgia.

And John Lewis is very well known in the civil rights movement. He's, he's somebody that at 19, you know, March with Martin Luther King. He. He was almost killed multiple times. He was on a bus that was lit on fire. I mean, he's been subjected to some terrible things and all four. You know, the cause that was so important to him.

And this lady that works for him was talking about her position with him, and it was interesting, okay. When, when she described her job, it was actually kind of odd. She gave me a lot of details. I mean, even how much money she made and what she was getting at was she said, look, I make $45,000 working for John Lewis, and I worked for him for 30 years and.

I've been offered positions where, you know, it's well over six figures. They want me to come in and, and take these whatever executive roles. And I turned him down every time. She's like, look, and I'll be with, I'll be with John until he decides he doesn't want to run for office anymore. And it's because.

She's part of something. She believes in the vision that, that John had and has about where he wants to see no rights be and, and, and position himself in a way to help, affect change in politics. You know, and it's very admirable to hear someone like that describe why money is not essential to her whatsoever.

And why. She's so, I guess behind, you know, a person that she believes in and as a part of something bigger than her, and that will retain talent that will keep people focused and aligned smart, good people towards something that's bigger than all of us, you know, and in that case, it's, it's something that was.

Very, very important. And he still has an important role today and for us. And I guess relative to that, what we do is not nearly as important as a civil rights movement. And I'll never position it like that, but I feel like we have an opportunity to impact our profession positively as well, even though it may not be nearly as important.

It is important to me, and it's something that I feel like we have, a unique opportunity to. Affect change positively, ah, within, within our profession and as our staff, you know, realizes in the, they understand that they're a part of that. You see, it's, it's just a way for us to be on the same page to work towards a common goal.

I do see you achieve something, you know, hopefully, we look back, and it's fantastic, right? And we're, we are proud of that. We feel like. It wasn't just about revenue, you know, it wasn't just about money, it was about impact. It was about doing the right things for other people as well. And people will stay for that.

And if they don't know what bus they're on or where it's going, they're going to get off. They're going to want to go somewhere else. And that's not their fault. That's my fault or your fault. If your. You know, an owner of a business and you're, you have staff, and sometimes you hire the wrong people.

This could be a whole other conversation, you know, and, but if you get the right people that align with your core values and they leave, it's your fault—nobody else's. And the breakdown probably is in communicating where you're going and why it's essential. Because often we think, Oh, money's the only driver.

Money's at a certain point. Money's not. Yeah. You know it. It isn't. Yeah, of course, it's nice to have more money, but people want to actually how to help others impact others and be a part of that. So yeah, that's the third big takeaway that I have from our staff retreat. So, in summary, number one, culture cannot be faked.

You have to live it, and it has to be something that you prove every single day. Number two, fun is just as important as hard work when it comes to your company, your staff taking that time to get to know each other on a different level. Decompress is not all about work. It shouldn't all be about work.

But being able to enjoy each other in a way that is just honestly like, one human to another human having some fun and experience is something fresh, is just as important as any amount of work that we will do. Number three, you have to continually remind people what bus they're on and where it's going.

And this is the understanding. Well, the company stands for what the company's trying to do. What movement are you a part of and why would they want to be around, you know, that will take you a long way. So this is something that I wish I would have known man five years ago. I hope if you're listening to this and you're thinking to yourself, man, I have a side hustle practice.

I'm making like 1000 bucks a month. I just want more new patients. Cool. There's plenty of shit that I put out about that listen to that. It's, it's, it'll help. But if I can go back, you know, five years ago when we started our practice and delve into some of these things about being clear on, you know, our values and our culture and enjoying the experiences instead of just grinding and working my ass off, it would have been a hell of a lot better.

A more enjoyable along the way and probably much, much more productive. So if that's you and you're just getting going, and you're just getting started, don't forget about the big picture stuff cause one day if you do things right, it's not going just to be you. It's going to be you and other people. And I hope that's the case.

Cause that means our profession is growing. That means the right people are employing the right people. And. You understanding your culture and your vision and your mission and other people wanting to be a part of that is going to help you tremendously in your business. in many ways, not just revenue-wise, but also surrounding yourself by or around w with, with people that are, remarkable.

You know, that, that actively want to work with you and turn down positions other places where they can make more money. Just like the lady that. A spoke that works for John Lewis so keeps that in mind. I hope that you guys enjoy this one. I had a great time at our staff retreat. Check out Sarah and B, and if you guys are a, if you guys are interested, it's like ultra lovely, too cute.

I feel like somebody in there doing something terrible like. Drowning cats or some shit like that. Some weirdo probably lives there, but like, it's like, it's a lovely place, but almost like creepy. Nice. But worth checking out if you're in the area. So guys, as always, thanks for listening. Catch you next time.

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